With all the hubabaloo about the Guides and Vaults, I was thinking that we still need an easy way to add a player without buying a duplicate set of other material (I don't really care to buy the Adventure's Toolkit over and over for the basic action cards).

I think what we need for this is a small set with some dice, packaged with a set of basic action cards. Maybe with a pad of character sheets or not.

I'd make my totally uninformed, armchair guess at price at $15.

What say you all? Would you buy this?

isn't this the market that the Player's Vault is aimed at?

Yep exactly what the players vault is, though it doesn't have dice with it, based on the announcement, which I think it should.

Dice would seriously increase price since each player would want at least 2+ sets to really be effective.

Since the dice are $12.00 for a partial set (most need 2 or more sets), I'd say $15.00 is a bit light.

Additionally, I think others have already stated it, but the Players' Vault is most likely going to fill this need (sans dice).

For $40 I'm assuming that the Player's Vault will have a lot more material than just the basic actions, which I'm assuming I don't need duplicates of (much like the Adventurer's Toolkit).

Doc, the Weasel said:

Right, but if they produce your idea, why would anyone buy the player's vault.

Some people claim the Player's Vault is only going to contain 1 of each basic action card. If that's the case, it's even worse than the Adventurer's Toolkit for this purpose.

I agree, a box with just basic action cards and a full set of dice is starting to look really nice now. I don't think $15 is unreasonable for that, but give it 3 sets of basic action cards and I'll gladly pay $20.

mcv said:

And why would 1 player need 3 sets of basic action cards?

Kryyst said:

I usually play WFRP with a group, rather than alone.

Yeah, but once a new player wants to join, he will need the cards too. And if you have 3-4 players, all basic action cards, and possibly some of the advanced actions he wanted to have are taken. Should he buy a new core set, or the Adventurer's Toolkit? Well, if we wants to have it, sure, but to join the game, the Player's Vault is more than enough for him, because he will have all the actions, tokens, stand ups that he possibly needs, and character sheets to.

The Player's Vault is not for a party, but for one player.

Ravenheart87 said:

And that's a problem. The Player's Vault isn't cheap. It's more expensive than the Adventurer's Toolkit (so for just the basic actions, the AT is a better choice). And you're paying for a lot of stuff that not every player will need. A box for the group is a much better idea.

For a single player, I guess $15 for dice and basic actions is okay. I prefer stuff aimed at the group, though. More cost efficient, and reflects the fact that it's not a single player game.

It's not more expensive than buying a Player's Guide, which players do in other RPGs.

dvang said:

I've heard that it happens in some D&D groups, but most people I know prefer buying ether a complete game, or nothing. The only time I've seen other players buy core rulebooks, was when we were already deep in an Earthdawn campaign that lasted 10 years. And that book was a complete game. Though I admit I got a second hand copy of The Adept's Way (not a complete game, but a useful book for players nonetheless) for $5. I wouldn't have bought it for $40. Or even $20.

mcv said:

Which is why the core set comes with 3 sets of cards, the adventure kit comes with a set of cards, the players vault will come with a complete set of cards.... that's 5 sets of cards.

Or you can get the players guide to support any number of players without using cards. You really are complaining just for the sake of it.

Kryyst said:

No I'm not. I'm complaining because I hope FFG listens. They often do.

There's an unwritten rule in my groups (past and present) games that if you are playing, you own and have read the rulebook.

For D&D it was the players handbook and most other games that meant the Core Rulebook (DH, RT, WFRP2, etc...)

mcv said:

Your experience is not universal. Nor is mine. I've played games where everyone had rule books, where only the GM has books, where everyone had the whole line of books. It's a nice idea, and if FFG can find away to make products that suit each player needs as well as their own, I will applaud having the options.

LeBlanc13 said:

It's hard enough for us to agree on what we're going to play as it is. I guess limiting your players to people who are willing to invest in their hobby has its advantages, but we're just a group of friends. We don't want to kick people out for not being willing to pay or having time to read.

Of course that also means that lately we've been migrating away from complex, heavy systems, and towards lighter systems. And I think WFRP is at its heart a light weight system (though it's trying to disguise that).

mcv said:

I think what we can all get from this is that there is no standard in player RPG ownership. Assuming that all the players will or won't have their own material is foolish either way.

FFG has a very hard time keeping product supply stocked. Just look at their supply line tab. They have not have much at all. Im still waiting on them to get plastic sleeves. Heck you still cant get WFRP dice.

Doc, the Weasel said:

I don't think it's foolish at all. In fact, my experience is those players that don't take the time to learn the rules are usually the ones that don't last too long in the group anyway. They float in, try it for a few sessions and float out again finding it's not for them.

Letting someone play a game or two without knowing the rules to let them try it out isn't too bad. If they decide to join your group on a semi-permanent basis, they need to know the rules and that means having their own book.

Is $30-$60 for a rulebook that much of an expense? Most people plunk down $60.00 without blinking an eyelid when buying an XBOX 360 game. Some people even do that on a weekly basis to get the latest hotness in video games.

In my opinion, if you're going to commit yourself to a hobby, you need to make the initial investment at least in a core rulebook.

LeBlanc13 said:

Agree. If your going to play long term get the core set. I still want the hard back books. Easyer then going thur my growing pile of paper ones...lol

I'm not sure if this is where everyone is going with people not being required to have books in their game or not, but I wanted to address it just the same.

If you're group members don't buy the rulebooks and support the company producing the game.... that company won't make any more product.

Having a gaming group all using one persons book, players resorting to downloading their book illegally online or using photocopies of someone elses book is bad for gaming as well as the industry. RPG publishers don't continue to support games if they are not pulling in sufficient profit to warrant that support. That's just good business sense from their perspective.'

If you love a game and want it's parent company to keep making product for it, talk your bookless friends into purchasing product to support the hobby. While Pirates are indeed cooler than ninjas, there is no call for piracy in this sense of the word.

Other than my slight rant here, I stand by my previous post.

LeBlanc13 said:

I agree and I was just thinking this yesterday – if FFG can't make money from this (and don't they have a right to make money?), then there will be *no* version of WFRP in print. Do WRFP fans (even those who are happy with 2nd edition) really want that? (Surely 2nd edition only players can get something from the new version, even if it's just the new adventures?)

I have GMed WFRP3 over 20 sessions by now.

Basic actions cards are more like rules reminders which take a lot of space on the table and sometime in the player's mind. Haven't you seen starting players forgetting to use their true actions cards because they were lost among basic cards ?

For many sessions I suggested my players to share one or two sets of basic action cards.

For now my players are using Gitzman's incredible basic action card summary. It's in the middle of the table, where they throw their dice pools. Good points :

1. save space for the game on the table
2. gives value to the few real actions cards the characters have.
3. Enhance the collegial "Party" aspect of the game.
4. Saves your money and debates about basic actions cards you use so often that you don't even need to read.