I wanted to thank FFG for putting the Warhammer game in a hard cover format.

The ability to play without all the bits is also great news!

I tried to get my D & D group to play a game of Warhammer once in awhile for a change . . .

After one game they all said the same thing.

To many bits . . .

This new format will allow me to get my Warhammer fix!

Thanks FFG ! ! !

Best line:

"While the WFRP Core set remains the ideal entry point (and perhapes the best value in gaming)" - Fantasy Flight Games (emphasis mine).

The claim leaves me laughing so hard it hurts.

$100 provides materials for 3 players and a GM, providing only one rulebook however. It provides a single short adventure, and almost no monsters.

Pathfinder:

Paizo are good folks, but they arn't yet the best value publishers of the three i am going to list. They do however beat fantasy flight's WFRP offering.

For example, if one had subscribed to pathfinder RPG and Bestiary, one would have everything you needed for the same group to play for about $5 less, but the GM would have resources for several millions more possible encounters without repition and the PCs would have more options. Oh, and the group would have an additional electronic copy of each book.

A tech savvy group could legally start playing Pathfinder tomorrow, for free, giving them $100 to spend on a Pathfinder adventure path, and campaign setting. Giving you easily six months worth of excilent pre-written adventures, plus a rich setting for future games, in addition to everything you get in the core book, and stats for all the monsters in the bestiary.

White wolf:

For $100, you can buy a copy of the core rules, Changling: the lost, dice as physical, plus goblin markets, autumn nightmares, and rites of spring, as pdf. That is best part one thoasand pages of some of the best RPG material ever written(imho, though it is a line which has reached great critical success, as well as being a firm white fan faverate.) This selection provides everything one would need to run three to four years worth of weekly six to eight hour play of changling, and easily about another year and a half of mortal play. Additional purchase for both mortal and changeling lines extend both lines still further.

If you go back to classic games and are a tech savvy group, the value shoots up, with you being able to buy twenty or so box from the old world of darkness for the price of the WFRP core box set

Wizards of the coast:

I hate to say it, but by an order of magnitute, the best value on offer is Wizards. It pains me to say it, and their is a lot not to like about 4e DnD, but on value, it simply cannot be beaten.

With the purchase of a single bundle of the core books (about the equivilant of $31.88 here), and one months access to DnD insider, and dice for a total of less than $50, on has access to more than 100 adventures, more than 48 digital magazine issues containing monsters, new setting, magic items and much more, and you get those perminantly if you down load them. If you keep up your subscription, well thats all the mechanical game infomation, plus character builder, searchable, for the fifty dollars you have left over from the buy in to WFRP, you have a years subscription with ease.

So what is it you get with the WFRP box set? Well mostly Tat. Most of the material in the WFRP core box set simply isn't needed. Could have workably contained in a single rulebook and dice, with everything else having been an optional purchase for those who find such things useful. So frankly, i am very glad that we are getting a hard back, as i might now be able to get my gaming group to play it.

I just hope this isn't at the expense of those of us who have invested in the game and actually like the new mechanic...

Great news for me. I like HC books and am very interested in some of the new mechanics (the dice mechanics seem cool and power cards are helping in 4e very much) but even when playing Descent the bits tend to get on my nerves

I might get into this game after all.

zombieneighbours said:

Yeah right, that comparison is fair. The WFRP core set has components, you listed no components for DnD (apart from the dice). Add maps and minis to DnD if you want to make it more fair. You're also comparing DnD insider stuff to physical products, that's just silly. You could say that DnD has more value because it is a much larger product with tons of content being produced digitally.

Lastly, you say that WFRP core will cost $100 and a DnD bundle $31.88, that comparison is wrong in so many ways I have trouble taking you seriously. If I go to my local shop (in Europe, so prices are quite high) a DnD bundle will cost me $116 while one copy of WFRP core set will cost me $97. Looking at amazon prices the cost of a DnD bundle is $66 while WFRP3e is at $63. Where are you getting your numbers from?

Yes, finnaly we will get some hadrcover books - those are great news!

The signs are obvious: hardcover WFRP3 books announced, and my girlfriend is slowly finishing the painting of her first Warhammer army... The time has come for me, to finally buy this game.

zombieneighbours, are you asking me to penny pinch when it comes to my choice of RPGs? I don't want to read the tombstone "Here lies RPG hobby. Died of gamer alarmism & miserlyness"

Ravenheart87 said:

Ravenheart87 said:

I think that many fans will come back to this game - there were scared of the cards, tokens and other stuff but they will return as soon as they will see those new , shiny hardcover books.

Maybe I'm a little bit old fashion GM but still - I love the feeling of a good book in my hand. WFRP 3ed - I have the core set but I will buy all those books and other stuff. WFRP 3ed is really this thing that I love!

ffgfan said:

Lets just how they aren't ditching those of us that like the existing game...

gruntl said:

gruntl said:

Firstly, you do not 'need' anything other than pencil, paper, rules and dice to play either pathfinder or 4e. Grids and tokens certainly are useful, and you can print these out for your self, at a cost measured in pennys.

It looks like I got the numbers wrong with regards to the bundle set. It was being sold at £40, which is $63, bricks and morter store, ace comment, though it was part of a limited time deal, which i believe was UK only(i think brokered by asdevium games here in the uk ), but it was still £40.

But even if you go with the current RRPs only, yeah, you pay six more dollars, but with small payment, for DnD Insider, your level of content jumps up drastically. Marginally higher buy in, but better value.

Ofcause providing you have a lap top, you can play Pathfinder for less than a dollar, used to by pencils and paper, or if your really pushing the boat out you can use your dice, and print out character sheets.

Not at all, but fantasy flight are making a claim that their product is 'perhapes the best value in gaming'. All i am doing is saying we shouldn't let them get away with such an obvious falsehood.

In fact, their choice to produce produce the game in the manner they did, heavily impacted the fact that it took me months to purchase it, and the fact I only just bought additional material for it, and the fact that I probably won't be able to afford to purchase any more for several month.

Other companies, paizo and white wolf especially offer better value for money, and frankly, I don't think value for money is a bad thing in and of itself.

If the cards and gimmicks are out, so am I.

They are the reason I wanted to play this game again without heavy books.

I never liked those too small softcover "books". You pay for too many covers with few pages. I'm glad to see coming an expanded rulebook with examples and and GM book that binds Tomes of Adventure/mysteries/blessing -stuffs we use offgame- without the bestiary, which is something different we always use ingame.

Concerning bits...

- I like career cards (expandable, players enjoy that illustration, etc...)

- I like condition, miscast, insanities and wounds card because gamers ALWAYS forget conditions and wounds in all other games.

- I like action cards (expandable, no memory effort for any gamer - player or GM).

- I like tokens to track recharge, tension party, fortune, iniative and progress trackers.

- I like the unique fatigue/stress token.

- I don't like the small career attribute card (write it on the career card, we'll copy it down the character sheet if we buy the dedication bonus).

- I don't like but I need talent card because of the slot system that need to always see whose are activated and whose are not.

- I don't like mutation cards because these effects are permanent. As small career attributes, they could be written down on the character sheet.

- I don't like corruption point because these effects should be permanent. My players don't like that I could "heal" it by spending a point to increase a check difficulty.

- Oh... and why so many differents token have been created ? We could need some guidance about that...

- I don't like the "3 stress/fatigue" token : it brings confusion, and you don't clearly recognize it on the table from a GM pov.

From what i have seen, you'll still have them, but they will be there for you if you want them. There by, the cost of them is carried by you, rather than those of us who can happily live without.

zombieneighbours said:

I agree to that, but how long will components be available and how much of the rereleases has used resources from other products?

But I was too hasty, I will still buy the stuff coming out, hardback or not.

I am just suspicious that the vocal on-line minority, is getting the upper hand.

DongMaster said:

What evidence do you have that it's a 'small online minority'? Simply put, of the WFRP groups i have played with over the years, not one of them has moved to 3rd Ed. The active community here seems tiny compared to the old black industry boards. And I've seen no evidence that the game is selling as well as second edition.

This appears to be a fairly major change of direction by fantasy flight. Doing this costs them money to invest inl, there for they have to believe it is in their long term benifit to do it. One interpritation is that the Online voice that your hearing is a small and enthused minority of pro-current state of affairs voices, rather than representative voice of the entire WFRP player base.

zombieneighbours said:

Simple, they almost always are.

If WFRP is any different, then I am gladly the one to acknowledge this when I am proven otherwise.

You also seem to think I do not want FFG to succeed, and that is not what I want.

I am just seeing a pattern of WFRP2 and what suddenly happened.

But the FAQ will clear it out.

Fortunately burden of proof does not work that way. You see, it is you who is making a claim, it is their for up to you to support it with evidence. I try to avoid(not always successfully) claims about relative popularity of games, because frankly, know one knowns exactly. Educated guesses are the best we can make. What little evidence I have seen about player behaviour is inevitably local and prone statistical spike, so I don't claim, based on my experience of being the only person I know outside of the internet who owns WFRP 3e, that 3e isn't well liked.

However, your claiming, based on just such a limited sample, that 3E is well liked.

The only real indication we have about 3e is Fantasy flights behaviour. Well, firstly, they have stepped up production all RPG products by the look of things, but they are drastically altering their approach to sales of WFRP, by introducing a Book only version. To me, that seems like a fairly clear message that they do not think that the Boxed is going to be as profitable for them in future, and that they need another entry point, either for those who where turned of by the box, or for those who want their own copy of the rules without having to purchase the box. They have to think that their is money in doing so, or at least that it will cause other products to make more money in the long run.

zombieneighbours said:

I agree completely with this.

As to the "best value"-discussion we had before, I think FFG's claim to be best value probably stems from the nomination of WFRP3e to best value product in the Ennies. I still think your comparisons are unfair, but enough about that . WFRP3e is not a cheap RPG, but the art and quality of components is amazing (possibly the best I've ever seen for a RPG). So I think the value is extremely high, but that's of course subjective.

Thanks for the agreement, I think the hyposis based on observations is one of the most plausible explanations of the data, and is pretty self evident, though their are other possible explanations(WFRP is out performing what they expected, and they are trying to capitalise on it belatedly might be another).

All i can really say is that i think its a good thing. it gives all the neccissary data for the game together, and makes the components optional, as they always should have been.

I'm sad you want to abandon the value aspect of the discussion, as i think it's important to pull up companies which try to edit our perceptions of reality.

I am curious why you think it is unfair to compare a $100 which provides you with everything you need to play products which provide everything you need to play for $58 in physicial form(WoD+changling+dice). (i mean, either you need all the stuff in the box, or your being sold excessories you don't need right?)

Lots of reused art(which is okay but i've seen it many times before), and frankly the new art that their is, doesn't speak to me, especially when compared to say artesia adventures in the known world or pathfinder or white wolf.

mmm...with regards to the FAQ

Interesting, atleast partly conforms what I thought might be happening.

Interesting that they are still only in their second print run. Pathfinder went to its 3rd within a year. Of cause, without actual figures for the size of the print runs, in both cases that doesn' neccissarily tell us that much(though paizo did describe pathfinders first sold out before launch print run as being extensive.)

zombieneighbours said:

It is irrelevant to me if you believe what I type or not because my "claim" was aimed towards FFG.

If they listen to real complaints, real facts, and take these into account when making this decision then yes they are doing the right thing.

In all hobbies there are always, no matter how much you say otherwise, a small minority who write long posts and post often who are usually dissatisfied with the current climate and products - this site has been/is brimming with a few of them.

You also have me confused with someone who is nagging about the state of WFRPIII. I am not.

I am simply hoping they do what they do because of just what you wrote.

Without income there will be no next product and I still find RPGs to be cheap as hell compared to my other hobbies and I will still buy the hardback stuff in spite liking the current format better.

So I agree with you except for the vocal minority - it works the same in politics.

zombieneighbours said:

But the perceived value is of course very subjective (as you prove yourself by saying that the art doesn't speak to you). What's the point in discussing that? We won't get anywhere

Your comparisons with Pathfinder and WoD might be right on the mark, I mainly reacted on the DnD4 comparison because it was so completely out of hand (granted, it was based on a miscalculation). However, I cannot judge the value of those other products since I have not even looked at WoD since Werewolf 1ed and have only skimmed through Pathfinder once.

The whole argument on perceived value is pointless anyway. The perceived value of a game is how much entertainment you can draw from it. It's like trying to argue over the price of art. The material costs of WFRP are higher then the material costs of a pure book format game. The value of that though is what you get out of playing it pure and simple. I get way more value out of WFRP 3 then I would from even spending $20 on Dogs in the Vineyard, $20 there is a complete waste of money.