I must preface this by saying that I do not have a copy of Deathwatch yet, though I have the Free RPG day scenario, which includes a couple of sample characters.

Looking at these character's stats, I couldn't help but notice that these Marines are really no more impressive (stat-wise) than any other Rogue Trader or Inquisitorial Acolyte from the other games in the series. So, I'm wondering if this was a design choice to keep all three games more in line with one another or was there some other reason?

I realize that in Warhammer 40K, the Space Marine statline isn't a great deal more impressive than a normal human (Guardsman), but in theory it should be... it's just beyond the scale of the wargame. Shouldn't a 7-foot tall superman made of ceremite-laced bone that heals quickly, spits acid, can eat most anything, et cetera, have better stats than normal humans... even a special ones (that is, player characters)?

Note that I'm not trying to be confronational, I'm just curious if I'm missing something by not (yet) having the rulebook or if there was a certain design choice for this if I'm not.

Docrailgun said:

The Space Marines have Unnatural Strength and Toughness. This doubles their bonuses for both stats; this alone separates them from a DH/RT character. Their other starting stats are comparable to RT characters.

And doesn't the fact that they have bones that heal themselves, spit acid, can eat just about anything, breath underwater and have farts that smell like roses mean they are beyond normal humans?

Well, your average human has bones that heal themselves. If not, the world be a painful, yet slightly comical place of people walking around on crutches, not being able to scratch your nose, and where rules will be worth their weight in gold ("Argh! it itches!"). If you really want to get down to it, just where would the Marine have higher stats and where would they have extra mechanical doohickies (probably Talents/Traits)?

• Strength . Okay, DW:FS has that covered with Unnatural Strength. They're disproportionately strong for their size/frame. (Admittedly, so would chimpanzees, but that's another story. )
• Toughness . You might have guessed, but I'm not a fan of Unnatural Toughness, but a Marine is more resistant to disease, toxins and other poisons, environment, etc. Personally I would have stacked the armour for the black carapace and gone with doohickies for this one.
• Intelligence . Marines are selected for their intelligence, with one of the most common manifestations of this being an eidetic memory. So, maybe a minor increase in intelligence (+5?), or even just give them the doohickie of "Eidetic Memory."
• Initiative . A more contentious topic, but I might up this a little bit but broadly make them main advantage that they don't have a negative modifier while wearing power armour (hence the Black Carapace).
• Willpower . I might be inclined to give a minor bonus here, although you could also leave it to mechanical doohickies once more ("They shall know no fear").
• WS/BS . Their base level should be competent, or they will hit more than they miss in normal circumstances (I would say the 'range,' but that's probably going to lead to some... commentary!). So, whatever level that might be.

Everything else will seem to have to wait. For example, is the Larraman's Organ going to be subsumed under that horrendous Toughness Bonus? Guess we're just going to have to say. I for one hope that they do tease out the zygotes a bit more so that you can see where all the buffing comes up front, rather than have to wait until a much later date to see negative modifiers or trait (whatever) removal to mimic the absence/mutation of a zygote. Of course, the effect is pretty much the same, but I always prefer to do as much work up front—it's a bias "thang."

On the other hand, I'm rather glad that you didn't see too much inflation of the statistics. I wouldn't want even more Marine buffing, though YMMV.

Kage

Sadly, they seem to have gone for an absolute bare minimum Space Marine instead of taking the opportunity to stretch out show what the big guys can do.

AluminiumWolf said:

Or, at least, that's what they have done in the demos, given that all the demos have only the bare basic rules. I'd suggest waiting for Deathwatch to come out before writing them off

MILLANDSON said:

Something tells me that you know more than you're letting on...

I can't imagine why that would be.

AluminiumWolf said:

As with the previous rules, personally I would have to wait to see the final rules. Even without MILLANDSON's commentary one can definitely imagine them being a very different (combat) beast and the demo rules missing out a whole suite of information that makes Marines into Marines (in the game). As above, I'm going to be interested to see where they took "simulating" the Marine, i.e. did they even bother or did they just lump everything together (and if so, will they tease it out later)?

Perhaps people could look at some other systems and see what they did with Marines there and see how they compare in the long run? Maybe even those Tyranus Conclave ones in DH...

Kage

Not to mention the 'hordes' rules are very likely intended for Deathwatch level play.

So while a Rogue trader might have better base stats, the Unnaturals and everything else will make a huge difference.

SpawnoChaos said:

Me know more than I'm letting on? When does that happen?

I can help with Kage's question, in regard to the Larraman's Organ though, since Ross has said I can talk about Deathwatch now. No, it doesn't cover part of the Unnatural Toughness trait. That organ means that Space Marines can't suffer from Blood Loss (unless it's a weapon with the Warp Weapon quality, because they don't deal damage like normal weapons), and they gain the True Grit talent (which, when the Space Marine takes Critical Damage, halves the result (rounding up)).

The only organs that don't do their own thing (and instead add to the Unnatural Toughness and Unnatural Strength) are the Secondary Heart, the Ossmodula, the Biscopea, and the Haemastamen. Everything else does it's own thing that isn't in the demo.

They average 45 at the start, which is 10 more than RT characters average. That's significant. I assume they'll increase like nomral guys from there.

MILLANDSON said:

Awesome ! Glad to hear that more of the fluff gets to see the light.

DarknessEternal said:

Space Marines start off with 2d10 + 30 in their stats, with modifications to that from the Chapter they come from.

MILLANDSON said >>>

I can help with Kage's question, in regard to the Larraman's Organ though, since Ross has said I can talk about Deathwatch now. No, it doesn't cover part of the Unnatural Toughness trait. That organ means that Space Marines can't suffer from Blood Loss (unless it's a weapon with the Warp Weapon quality, because they don't deal damage like normal weapons), and they gain the True Grit talent (which, when the Space Marine takes Critical Damage, halves the result (rounding up)).

I have to ask. Does the True Grit come with the tendency to heroically waddle like John Wayne? That would be "epic." And so appropriate given the shape of powered armour.

At the same time? Interesting. I would have to see the fully fleshed out details to see how this works out, though. I've been saying that for a while, though.

MILLANDSON said >>>

The only organs that don't do their own thing (and instead add to the Unnatural Toughness and Unnatural Strength) are the Secondary Heart, the Ossmodula, the Biscopea, and the Haemastamen. Everything else does it's own thing that isn't in the demo.

Seems a strange choice on the face of things but... Can you guess? Yeah, it depends on seeing the final product. I can think of reasons why this might be a good thing, and many why it might not be so great... Still going to have to wait like the rest of the plebs so that I can do the whole First Blush thing.

Kage

I thought the stats were a bit low myself, considering these are meant to be the best of veteran space marines.

But the DH and RT stats are for exceptional individuals (especially in RT). The very best of normal humanity is sort of around space marine level it seems.

Decessor said:

Well, they had to leave some room for later character improvement. Gamers like to see their character become stronger and better...

I wouldn't be surprised to read in the DW corebook that newly-created PCs just joined the Deathwatch and can still learn a few tricks, though their are indeed SM veterans.

Kyorou said:

You would be mostly correct there. Whilst they don't have to be brand, brand new, they are new members of the Deathwatch. This is reinforced by the manner in which they can spend their initial allotment of XP.

While I'm glad to hear that what makes the Marines into Marines will play a role in the game, I wonder why there weren't any hints of that in the Demo rules? I didn't expect a full game (especially for free), it's just that the offered characters seemed underwhelming.

I'm excited about the game, though.

Docrailgun said:

Generally because you are trying to keep the page count for a demo quite low, and an extra few pages explaining all the stuff about how all the Space Marine organs work and how power armour works weren't really needed for a demo that's meant to show some of the new core aspects of the game (missions, Hordes, etc).

MILLANDSON said:

Any expanded rules for Hordes? Beyond that in FS? I assume there are more Hordes traits available. :-)

Alex

ak-73 said:

I so seriously hope so...

Kage

ak-73 said:

There had better be. So far horde rules don't cover hitting the horde with the following:

- Flamers. Circular AOE probably work like grenades, but flamers don't produce a circular effect.

- Non-lethal attacks like blind and hallucinogen grenades.

- Things that affect anyone who sees it, like a PC with a fear rating.

MILLANDSON said:

That's grand. I'd be surprised if there wasn't some difference between starting Deathwatch and their elders.

As for the demo rules, there is such a thing as information overload. It's better that the proper full rules are left for the main book when people have time to actually read and digest them, instead at a demo game where time is limited.

Bilateralrope said:

Flamers - Flame Weapons used on a Horde will hit it a number of times equal to one-quarter of the weapon's range (rounding up) plus 1d5 (so a range 10 flame weapon will hit a Horde 1d5+3 times).

Non-lethal attacks - They still hit the number of people a lethal attack would, knocking out a number of Magnitude a lethal weapon would for the length of time the non-lethal weapon states (so a blind grenade would render a number of Magnitude blind for a while). Same as with non-lethal Psychic Powers.

Fear Rating - Affects the Horde as normal, the GM would decide how many of the Horde retreat/collapse with fear, etc.

Docrailgun said:

Yeah. And these are not just Space Marines, these are the best ten Space Marines in their chapter. The top 1%.

What does an Average Marine look like? Is 'The finest warriors in the universe' as much a source of comedy as 'only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise'?