Do responses and passives to winning intiative (Drowned Fanatic, Bay of Ice) happen before the resolution of the "when revealed" portion of plots? I'm pouring over the FAQ, and I can't find a clear answer. Of course, it may be there and I'm just not sure what I'm looking for.

Dobbler said:

The FAQ Entry you're looking for is:

" (2.2) Plot Effect Resolution
Continuous or constant plot effects take effect
immediately and simultaneously, as soon as
the plot cards are revealed. The first player
determines the order in which all "when
revealed" plot effects are resolved. "When
revealed" plot effects are essentially self-referential
passive effects that initiate in response
to the revealing of the plot card with the
"when revealed" effect. They are resolved (in
the order determined by the first player) during
step 4 of the action window in which the
plot card was revealed. All "when revealed"
plot effects must resolve before any other passive
effects initiated by the revealing of a plot
card(s) are resolved."

Now, you just need to combine this with the basic Framework Action Window timing. All framework events in a framework action window cycle through their own Steps 1-3, then move on to a common Steps 4-6. This means that plots are revealed (with continuous plot effects becoming active), initiative is counted and First Player is determined before any passive effects to any of those things take place.

When you move on to the common Step 4 for passives, the above FAQ entry says that any "when revealed" plot text must take place first. This means that while the First Player gets to decide the order in which passive effects to revealing plots, winning/losing initiative and becoming First Player take place (since they are all taking place in the same Step 4), the First Player must choose all "when revealed" plot text to happen before any other passive effects.

So no, no passives - and certainly no Responses - to winning initiative can ever happen before the resolution of "when revealed" plots.

The whole mechanic is really no different than not being able to use passives/Responses to "winning a challenge" before claim is settled and unopposed/renown are awarded.

Thank you Ktom. I appreciate the quick response!

"So no, no passives - and certainly no Responses - to winning initiative can ever happen before the resolution of "when revealed" plots.

The whole mechanic is really no different than not being able to use passives/Responses to "winning a challenge" before claim is settled and unopposed/renown are awarded."

so, i have to wait for the first player to choose the order and resolve all the "when revealed" plots before i can play ahead of the tide (an event that cancels the determination of the first players and makes me win initiative) and steal the initiative?

Kissing_Crimson said:

1. Choose and reveal plots
2. Initiative is counted
3. High initiative player appoints “First Player”
4. "When revealed" plot effects resolve (In order determined by First Player)

Since it has magic word "cancel", you play it in step 2.

That is what ktom was allowing for when he wrote:

ktom said:

For reference, steps 1-3 are:

1) Action is initiated
2) Save/cancel responses
3) Action is executed

This came up in a game I was playing the other day:

I had a Climbing Spikes on my opponent's GTM and controlled 1 Wildling character, which resulted in GTM's text box being blank. During the plot phase my opponent revealed Valar. We were debating whether or not he would would be able to draw a card from GTM after plots resolved. My Wildling character would be dead once the plots resolved, but when he revealed Valar I still controlled a Wildling character. Or did I not control a Wildling character because it was made moribund once Valar was revealed?

We decided that he would draw a card from GTM. I'm still unsure if that's right though. I have a feeling that he shouldn't have been able to. Thanks for the help!

A Moribund card (and its attachments) is considered
to have been killed, discarded, returned
to its owner's hand or deck, or moved to its
owner's shadows area, but only for the purposes
of triggering responses and passive abilities.
This includes responses and passive abilities
triggered by a card being placed in the appropriate
out-of-play area. A Moribund card is, for
all other purposes, still considered in play.

So your Wildling was still in play.

Rogue30 is right that if the Wildling were moribund, it would still be counting for Climbing Spikes. However, I am not sure that that is even the issue in this case. Valar Morghulis's passive and GTM's passive both trigger at the same time (when plots are revealed). So even if Valar Morghulis' text were something silly like "When revealed, kill all characters in play and all characters in play lose all traits," the GTM player still would not draw a card after Valar's passive resolves because, when Valar trigger and GTM would trigger, GTM's text box is still blank.

schrecklich said:

All "when revealed"
plot effects must resolve before any other passive
effects initiated by the revealing of a plot
card(s) are resolved.

So plot is step 4 and GTM step 5.

Rogue30 said:

Look carefully at the usage of "initiate" and "resolve" in the passage you quoted. The other relevant passage from the FAQ is this one:

Remember that if two passive abili-
ties are triggered at the same time, their order
of resolution is determined by the first player.

The ruling about "when revealed" plot effects just modifies the order in which simultaneously initiated passive effects are resolved during the "Reveal plots" framework action window. It does not create a new step nor does it not push all non-plot passives into step 5. Valar and GTM are both resolved in step 4. The first player is just forced to resolve Valar before GTM.

Rogue30 said:

Well, technically, the plot is Step 4 and GTM is later in Step 4, after the plot. Step 5 is Responses - and GTM did not become a Response.

In either case, though, it makes no difference because any character killed (and thus made moribund) in Step 4 is not removed from the table until Step 6 - well after any other passives or Responses to revealing plots, winning initiative, etc. are over and done with.

ktom, can you confirm or clarify for me what happens when two passives would be simultaneously initiated by one event?

Don't they initiate simultaneously and then all get moved to the passives zone (for lack of a better phrase) where they wait while the first player resolves them one by one? During step 4, the first player must choose to resolve each passive in the passives zone one by one (with the resolution of some passives possibly causing additional passives to be added to the passives zone if their trigger conditions are met). He must resolve plot "when revealed" passives before other passives but is otherwise free to choose any of the passives to resolve each time he chooses.

So it doesn't really matter what Valar does to the Wildling or what the moribund rules are. By the time Valar can even start doing anything it is too late for GTM's passive to initiate, right?

ktom said:

1. Choose and reveal plots
2. Initiative is counted
3. High initiative player appoints “First Player”
4. "When revealed" plot effects resolve (In order determined by First Player)

So plot is step 4 and GTM step 5.

Rogue30 said:

Ah. I see. We're getting caught in terminology here. In any action window, the steps are:

Step 1: Initiate
Step 2: Save/Cancel
Step 3. Resolve
Step 4: Passives
Step 5: Responses
Step 6: End

What you have quoted - 1 to 4 - are what the FAQ calls " framework events ," not steps. In the "resolve challenge" framework action window, you would cycle through and perform Steps 1-3 of the actions window ("Initiate" through "Resolve") four times, once for each framework event. Then you would move on a single, common Step 4-6 in which passives and Responses for all framework events take place simultaneously.

There is also more to consider than just the flow chart for this particular set of framework events, too. An FAQ entry (that you quoted earlier) further clarifies the resolution of "when revealed" plot text to take place as a passive effect of revealing plots - which means it takes place in Step 4 of the action window more than in framework event #4 listed on the flowchart. This clarification was made because so many people were asking if they got the "when revealed" effect of a plot card when the plot was revealed outside of the plot phase (since there was no framework event allowing them to resolve it).

Your understanding of the mechanics is right on, but your terminology does not match the FAQ. That's where the confusion is coming from, I think.

schrecklich said:

Well, you've got the right outcome, but you're saying it in a way that isn't quite correct.

Passive effects do not "initiate," then get moved to some sort of "passive zone" waiting for the First Player to resolve them. No player can actually be said to "resolve" a passive effect. What happens is that all passives that are triggered by events that have in Steps 1-3 (whether the same or different events - for example, there might be two passives triggered by "winning initiative" and one passive triggered by "revealing a plot") wait until Step 4 begins. Then, all the passives are considered to initiate at the same time - without order. However, this isn't always workable because sometimes, order matters (for example, if you controlled one card said "after you reveal a plot card, opponents discard the top card of their decks" and an opponent controlled another card that said "after you reveal a plot card, draw a card"). Order might also change whether or not a passive can initiate in the first place (for example, putting into play a card with an "after this card comes into play" passive effect). When order matters, the First Player decides the order in which the passive effects (for which order matters) initiate. This is important because it still lets you cancel or save from the passive effects one at a time.

But other than the "First Player chooses the order in which they resolve" and "First Player chooses the order in which they initiate" terminology, you are more or less correct. However, you seem to be trying to make the passives initiate simultaneously during the Step 3 of whatever event satisfies their play restrictions instead of sequentially in Step 4 for all events in Steps 1-3. That seems to be creating the confusion around your ultimate conclusion here.

schrecklich said:

Remember that in the plot phase, all the passive effects for all the framework events - namely revealing plots (including the "when revealed" text of the plots themselves), counting/winning initiative and being named First Player - wait until all of the Framework events are done resolving before any of them are initiated/resolved. None of the passives actually initiate until Step 4 of the action window starts.

That means that it matters a lot what the moribund rules are in this case. As discussed earlier in the thread, once you get to the point of initiating/resolving passive effects in the plot phase, you have to do the "When Revealed" text of the plots first. That means that Valar will always be initiated (then resolved) before GTM has a chance to initiate (then resolve) and the Wildlings will always be dead. On the face of it (and this was really the original question), since the Wildlings will always be dead, it looks like Climbing Spikes should be turned off, the text on GTM should be back and the player should get to draw a card. This doesn't happen, though, because even though the Wildlings are dead, they are still on the board - in moribund - as the rules for moribund state. Therefore, Climbing Spikes is still active, GTM is still blank, and it never gets a change to initiate.

Thanks everyone!

ktom said:

You are absolutly right, that I should use word "event" to avoid confusion, however I didn't think of that and I used word "step" as a common meaning (you know, after number 4 is number 5 etc.), just to show that passives initiate after "when revealed" event, not at the same time (it was comment to what schrecklich said). Since I'm not crazy enough to call GTM a response, a reader with a little good will should know that I meant only order, sequence of things.

Rogue30 said:

~ Good will? Here?

Seriously, though, it was more about making sure other people who read this follow along through the common terminology than to twist a knife.

ktom said:

ktom said:

~ Apology accepted, captain Needa...