I was hoping someone could clarify something which seems unclear to me regarding the use of the Psyniscience skill vs. the Navigator power Gaze Into the Abyss at Master level.

Besides gaining the +20% to your test, I can see little benefit to using one of your few (and therefore precious) Navigator Power advances on gaining the Master level ability to sense the use of psychic power in a range of 10m x PB, something which could easily be done with the Psyniscience skill which can be brought to +20% by Rank 3. Aditionally, the Psyniscience skill is often used passively, with the GM rolling to see if the character detects psychic phenomenon in the area, etc. On the other hand, the Gaze Into the Abyss power as written would suggest - like the other Navigator powers - that it is an active ability which cannot be "sustained" in any way. (BTW, I am assuming, for the purpose of this, that the range of the Psyniscience skill as as described in the Dark Heresy book: 1d10+PB meters + 1d10+PB per additional degree of success.)

It would seem to me that both of these advances would allow a Navigator to detect psychic powers being used in the area as well as potentially allowing the Navigator to identify the source, and both would do so within a similar radius. Comparatively speaking, the slight percentile edge granted by Master level Gaze Into the Abyss hardly seems worth the effort when you consider what you are giving up: the opportunity to increase/buy at least one other Navigator Power. (If you are playing a Shrouded House Navigator, the option of raising the power one more level to Paragon +30% seems even less attractive as you gain little besides the bonus to your test...)

I have re-read the descritpions for these powers over and over again, trying to find a significant difference between the two (as they pertain to detecting powers being used at least), but I have been unble to do so. What I have outlined above is to me the most confusing or unclear, but even at Novice rank, the difference between what Psyniscience can detect and what is the province of Gaze Into the Abyss is not always clear.

Are you aware of any amendments made to the Gaze Into the Abyss power whether in its application or its range? Have

Does this Master level then simply allow the Navigator to "scan" groups of people instead of individuals (and discover the same information about them that he could one at a time at Novice rank)? Or does it instead work passively, with the GM secretly rolling your Gaze Into the Abyss anytime a psychic power is used (in addition to the psyniscience he should also be making?)

I would appreciate any insights, suggestions or even gameplay examples you may have.

Thanks.

No suggestions, eh? Hmmm... I must be the only one who sees this as a problem!

I'd noticed this recently, but I have not had time to put any thought into it. Doesn't help much I know, but it has intrigued me.

Huh! Seems to me that Gaze into the Abyss at adept-level is the only reason to use it instead of Psyniscience

I had overlooked that myself. Good call on bringing it up. Perhaps ask FFG about it?

Decessor said:

Any idea what the best way to do that might be? I'm a little new around here.

And if anybody has any suggestions on how to "fix" this, I'm all ears... (I've thought about simply increasing the range of the power. So when you get to Master (+20%), your adept Gaze Into the Abyss becomes double PB VU and you detect psy. powers at a range of PB x 10m. If you are playing a Shrouded House Navigator, and buy the Paragon advance, then in addition to the +30% to use the power, your ranges would increase to PB x 5 VU for sensing major warp phenomena and, say, double PB x 10m VU for

I might also make the gaze Into the Abyss power a more passive power, like the Awareness skill, so the Navigator just gets a "feeling" when something is up or someone is not what they appear. That might make the power more useful as well.

Macharias the Mendicant said:

Asking FFG? There's a rules question link at the bottom of the page. Works most of the time and the developers are usually pretty quick to respond; typically within a day or two, sometimes in less than an hour. Just depends on what they got on their plate that day.

-=Brother Praetus=-

I can think of a couple of possible reasons.

1. Psyniscience can only be tested as a full action without two talents (one lowering it to a half action, second lowering it to a free action)

2. Psyniscience can let you know that a psychic power is being used but i dont think it would let you "see" the power, gaze into the abyss might mean the player could track the psychic trail or possibly just tell who is using a power much easier. For example when a astropath is doing a subtle mind probe.

Tetrasa said:

I think you're on the right track but I'm not convinced:

1. Yes, psyniscience can only be tested as a Full Action but is an advance which costs 200 XP. 500 XP (which does not count as one of 7 total possible Navigator Power upgrades) turns this check into a half action, And with 3+ degrees of success, you can pinpoint the specific user of a psychic power. I just don't think that increasing Gaze Into the Abyss to Master, as the power is presenlty outined, is all that worth it (though I suppose that's debatable if you really want that +20% to use the power)....

2. ...Now if you could autotmatically identify the specific power being used... and be able to use this information in some way that benefits him, that would be useful and different from psyniscience. The astropath using a sublte mind probe should be detectable with a psyniscience test just like someone using a more obvious power: tht's basically what that skill is for. (As for tracking the power or the trail, you could technically do that with a half-decent Psyniscience test and the Novice level of the Gaze Into the Abyss power, using the tracking rules.)

So, yeah: Gaze Into The Abyss might give you some neat visuals when i comes to psychic powers, but it would be nice if that came with a useful game effect. I'm going to bring the question to the attention of FFG and see what (if any) changes are proposed.

In the mean time, here's what my GM and I tentatively agreed upon:

• No changes to the description of the power at the Novice and Adept levels, though we've made it into a passive power: .
• At Master level, the Navigator can not only detect but identify the nature of psychic powers being used within a radius of 10m x PB. Additionaly, we've increased the range of the Adept ability of the power to detect major warp phenomena to 2 x PB VU. (I'm still working on some mechanic that gives you some game effect from IDing the power...)
• At Paragon level (available to Shrouded House Navigators) we agreed that in addition to the +30% to use the power, the ranges for the powers would be further increased: 5 x PB VU for detecting major warp events; 20m x PB to detect and ID psychic powers as used.

Any input is more than welcome!

In case anybody else is interested, here was the answer provided by Sam Stewart at FFG:

Thanks for your interest, and I thought that was a reasonable and interesting question. I would agree, the bonuses specifically offered at Master level are very similar to those provided by a successful Psyniscience Test. The important difference between Gaze and Psyniscience comes at lower levels. Gaze actually works better for detecting mutants and tainted individuals (those with Corruption Points) who are not necessarily psykers—in fact, psykers have a better chance of avoiding the power. On the other hand, Psyniscience has no way of sensing mutations or corruption. Then at Adept Level, the ability to detect warp rifts and ships entering the warp within hundreds (or in starship combat, thousands) of kilometres is something Psyniscience cannot duplicate. At Master level, the primary bonus is that the Navigator gains the +20 to his tests, and the detecting psychic powers is a useful addition (allowing him to gain this additional information with a single roll). It is, of course, up to you whether you think the +20 is worth advancing to the Master level of Gaze. Hope this helps!

So, looks like nothing is amiss.

Thanks everyone for your answers!