How come force weapons count as good quality in the hands of a blunt, but not in the hands of a psyker? The wording in The Inquisitor's Handbook seems to suggest this (though it's not explicitly stated), but it bothers me. In terms of in-universe reasons, I suppose one could imagine that drawing the warp energy through it takes a degree of the psyker's attention and... okay, I'm not 100% satisfied with that explanation.

In terms of game mechanics, it seems to me that they'd be pretty overpowered compared to, say, power weapons if they were good-quality at that price, in addition to the other benefits psykers get. Would it not make more sense to just up the price and have them always being good or best quality? Am I missing something somewhere?

An interesting question. I would have to say that, however much/little sense it make, a common quality Force weapon counts as Good quality when being used by a blunt because it is in general (relative to normal melee weapons) a well crafted weapon. However it is not a Good Quality Force Weapon: it's performance as a Force Weapon is strictly ordinary as far as they go, and as such doesn't gain the Good Quality modifier.

I always presumed that it was always Good-quality Whatever no matter who wielded it, but it the hands of a psyker it was all super special and stuff... *Shrug*

I too had thought that the description of a force weapon stated that it was a good quality mono weapon (of whatever type) that could channel the will of a psyker. Therefore in the hands of a null it's just a fancy looking melee weapon but mechanically no different from what a psyker would wield.

I would also argue that, as far as the quality scales are concerned, there is no such thing as a common quality force weapon. The extra care and attention that has to go into making them psychically active means that they are all non-primitive and of superior quality (i.e. a common force weapon actually refers to a good quality one, as common quality versions do not exist).

On the other hand I may be mis-remebering what the force weapon rules actually say...

Well now, this is an interesting point. The wording can, I think, be interpretted either way:

Unless wielded by a psyker, force weapons simply count as Good Craftsmanship Mono... However, in the hands of a psyker, they are much more...

To me, the wording implies the psyker receives the GQ bonus plus extra. Our GM ruled that was not the case. I can see it both ways, though reading it again fresh, I can't help but think it more suggestive that they are always GQ.

I suppose it comes down to the fact that the advantage this confers (all Force Weapons are automatically GQ, thus giving +5 to hit) is worth more than the rather small price of 3,500 - 4000 Thrones (comparing to, say, a Power Weapon). So, even if it were generally acknowledged they are probably intended to be universally GQ, my GM is well within his rights to make a House Ruling.

Still, even to a high-ranking noble, 7,000 Thrones is not an inconsiderable amount (as I paid this extra for GQ, given I'm a psyker and thus have a rather unimpressive Weapon Skill) so perhaps I ought to bring it up again...

Niqvah said:

My advice would be to take what you see in the Inquisitor's Handbook with a grain of salt. The interpretation there was originally by Black Industries and not Fantasy Flight Games. Fantasy Flight Game's take on the matter is apparently that Force Weapons are subject to the four grades of quality like everything else if the fact that a Primaris Psyker can choose to take a "common quality Force Weapon" means anything. (Incidentally, if you want another example of a discrepancy between the older Inquisitor's Handbook and the newer FFG books, look up the Thermal Lance in the Inquisitor's Handbook and compare it to the weapon of the same name in Rogue Trader .)

-Kirov

It seems logical that they are considered to be a good quality mono sword in the hands of anybody, including the Psyker. It does not suddenly lose the Good quality when a Psyker wields it does it?

So, any vagueness about the description of this weapon should be just described to "not as clear as possible" English.

Wording-wise, and logically speaking, it makes sense for Force Weaponry to be Good Quality for all. Bringing it back to 'Common Quality' Force Weapons from FFG, and comparing cost with other weaponry, I'd say they should dispense with the GQ for non-psykers and psykers alike.

That's what we've done for our game. I paid x3 for GQ, which seems reasonable. Our GM also added the ability to store a small amount of psychic energy within it (to reduce one power roll by 5 until it is recharged again) as I opted for a staff over a sword, and we thought it odd that they are the same price, but the staff offers generally less damage/advantages.

Niqvah said:

In addition to all the other rules for such items, the Force Staff also counts as a Psy Focus , where as the sword and axe do not. Also, per the errata, ANY primitive close combat weapon may be mono'd; the Force Staff as published does not seem to include such an upgrade like its brethren. Its pen should also be a base of 2, as with the other published force weapons .

-=Brother Praetus=-

Brother Praetus said:

Ah, yes, Brother. It is true that it can be a psy focus, but I omitted that detail as it isn't the most impressive attribute. When faced with a ravening horde of heretics, you're not likely to have the luxury of Focusing. When not faced with said horde, you have enough time to whip out your hip flask... ahem. Or whatever your psy focus may be.

The fact that it isn't a bladed weapon is another disadvantage (GM was happy for me to make up an equivalent to Blade Master for Blunt weapons, otherwise that is also a little unfortunate). I just thought a staff was more flavourful than another sword, and there is fluff precedent for storing warp energy in force staffs, so we thought that was a good addition. It's not a massive deal, but it does give the staff a little extra something to make up for less damage and a less impressive Crit Table.

Force weapons incorperate a delicate and extremely sophisticated array of psychically sensitive circuitry throughout the weapon, arranged in a coil formation not unlike the cadeceus. Force Weaponry is described as being incredibly rare and sophisticated and, as mentioned in the Inquisitor's Handbook the design originates with the God-Emperor Himself. That's a pretty fair argument for Force Weapons only being available at the Good and Best Quality bands right there, as a common or poor quality one would simply not function, or even be dangerous to a Psychic user.

As for how the weapon behaves for a Psyker and a Blunt, it's pretty clearly explained in the handbook. The correct interperation of the rules is this:

- The Weapon's base profile is as printed regardless of the user and comes by default as Good Quality. If you craft or purchase a Best Quality Force Weapon, then obviously it still counts as Best Quality no matter who wields it as the weapon does not suddenly become a weapon of shoddier workmanship when touched by a blunt or blank.

- In the hands of a Blunt, it uses the printed profile for the weapon on Table 7:2 Holy Ordos Melee Weapons of the Inquisitors's Handbook and cannot access the special rule as they are not psychic. The weapon counts as a Mono weapon of the correct quality that is immune to Power Fields (due to its superior construction, not magic), but still uses the base profile of a Force Sword.

- In the hands of a Psyker, he/she adds their Psy Rating in extra Damage and Penetration to the statistics block and can channel psychic power through the blade as usual. We made a house ruling after the somewhat dodgey Psychic Errata that channeling Psychic Force is not a conventional power use and was therefore still legal, but that you could only attempt to use the ability once per combat turn. You may wish to consider this.

Essentially, the rules state that the only difference between a blunt and a Psyker using a Force Weapon is that the blunt gets no benefit from the "special" trait, as they lack a Psy Rating to power it. Reading any discrepancies into the rules is illogical and I suggest you ask your GM to re-read the entry on Force Weapons. There's absolutely no grounds to even imagine that the weapon suddenly becomes one of inferior craftsmanship for Psykers either in the Inquisitor's Handbook or, more importantly, 40K lore.

If your GM tries to suggest that his or her ruling in on game balance rather than their mis-reading the rules, then ask them if they plan on nerfing any of the dozen or more other weapons that are much deadlier than Force Weapons, like Power Fists, Expolsives, Armored Vehicles, Psychic Powers, and virtually any kind of Heavy Weapon.

Force Weapons are impressive, but they are neither too good nor improperly priced or statted.

Azraiel said:

What do you mean by the 'somewhat dodgey Psychic Errata'?

Assuming you are referring to the changes to the Focus Power action, as a Free Action power the Errata changes have no effect on manifesting the additional damage power.

I mean 'somewhat dodgey' because it failed to properly account for Force Weaponry and completely missed the Catch Projectiles power.

" The first paragraph in the Using Psychic Powers section
starting on page 161 should include the addition: “Making a
Focus Power Action is the psychic equivalent of a Standard Attack
Action, and counts as such for purposes of determining what else
a psyker can do in a round. Therefore, a psyker who uses a Half
Action power cannot make another Half Action Standard Attack
on the same round. A Psyker may manifest only one ability per
Round with the exception of the Resist Possession power. A Psyker
is required to roll at least one die to manifest an ability.”

Force Weaponry more or less takes care of itself in their rules entry and although the errata creates a technicality that would imply that it is impossible to use a Force Weapon's chenneling effect as it is "a power with a threshold of 6", the Force Weapon Rules are very clearly written and should easily shoot down all but the most dogged rules lawyers, but the error is there, even if it isn't a serious concern.

Catch Projectiles, however, is simply not addressed at all. It falls into the same category as Resist Possession as a Reflexive Power, but was accidentally ommitted from the errata. The logical fix would be to also exempt it from the "counts as an attack" proviso as this is clearly an oversight and the fact that it costs a characters' reaction for the turn to manifest means that it cannot be used more than once in a combat round, therefore functioning as intended.

Azraiel said:

There is no technicality that implies that it is impossible to use the additional damage power of a force weapon. As I said previously, because the additional damage is a free action power it is not affected by the focus power changes in the errata.

Aside from only being able to manifest one power in a round, it is the "no duplicate half actions" rule that prevents a character from making a standard attack and manifesting a half-action power in the same round. Manifesting a free-action power and attacking (or vice versa) is perfectly legal. Some powers don't particularly make sense otherwise (iirc divine shot and unnatural aim).

Brother Praetus said:

Read up on what a mono edge is and you'll understand why a staff cannot have the mono upgrade.

Jack of Tears said:

Same applies to you. Reread the errata description of mono. It applies to ANY primitive weapon. So yes, you can have a mono hammer or staff.

Mono is used as a catch all term for any high tech upgrade to a primitive weapon that removes the primitive trait.

Then it isn't a real mono weapon and the term is being misused in the errata - another, appropriate term should have replaced it for blunt weapons. That was laziness on part of the developers.

Jack of Tears said:

ItsUncertainWho is summarising the errata, not quoting it word-for-word; it doesn't actually say "go ahead, feel free to have incongruous mono-hammers!". But, for the interest of clarity, I will quote it word-for-word:

"There should be an additional special note that reads: “The Mono upgrade may be applied to any melee weapon, but when applied to close combat weapons that do not use an edge (e.g., hammers, mauls, etc.) it is defined differently. GMs are encouraged to come up with interesting defi nitions for non-edged weapons. For example, a hammer with the Mono upgrade is defined as having a pneumo-shock enhancement. The in-game effects remain the same.”

The effect of the mono upgrade is essentially a catch-all for "made from advanced materials or using advanced methods such that the weapon is no longer primitive and is more effective against armour".

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Okay, that makes more sense - I was going to be rather disappointed with the writers if they'd actually applied the term "mono" to blunt weapons.

The mono attribute isn't only for blade edge, it can aquire the form of a pneumatic / hydrolic/ ... hammer, hardened plastic or metal for staff, even why not retratable razor sharp blade on th the staff when trigger or anything else. It just means that the weapon you are wielding in the fight had been made to be used against modern platting and armor.

I think the rules for Force weapons changed in ITS where they do stack with Mono.

guest469 said:

Um, they always did. The base ( mono'd) weapons damage and penetration is increased by the Psy Rating of the psyker using is. For instance, Force sword - base pen 2 in the hands of a Sanctioned Psyker with a Psy of 4 would be Pen 6. It's even worded that way.

• For every point of Psy Rating the wielder has the weapon's damage and penetration increases by +1. For example, a force sword wielded by a character with Psy Rating 3 would inflict 1d10+3 R (plus SB) and have a penetration of 5. IHB , page 187.

-=Brother Praetus=-