Hi

I am playing a assasin with a monokatana.

So why should I learn two weapon combat?

If I get the rules right If i Learn two weapon combat AND ambidextrous I can attack two times with an -20.

If I take swift attack wich is only one Talent I can attack two times with an -0.

Is that right?

And may I combine swift attack with furious assault ?

What if both hit do I get two extra attacks?

And is a hit only when I do damage or after I score (before dodge) or anything in between?

Thanks for help

WK

W1nterKn1ght said:

Taken in isolation, almost.

Two-Weapon Fighting (Melee) and Ambidextrous together allow you to make two attacks as a Full Action at a -10 (Ambidextrous reduces the penalty from -20), one attack with each weapon.

Swift Attack allows you to make two attacks with a single weapon as a Full Action.

Two-Weapon Fighting (Melee), Ambidextrous and Swift Attack all together allow you to make three attacks at -10, two of which are with one weapon, one of which is with the other, again as a Full Action.

W1nterKn1ght said:

No. Furious Assault specifically only works with an All-Out Attack action, and consequently cannot be used under any other circumstances.

This is all covered in the v.3.0 Errata, which you can download here on the support page.

However, to answer your questions in brief;

• Attacking with two weapons requires a full-round attack action.
• The normal penalty for attacking with two weapons is -20/-40 for your primary and off-hand respectively.
• The Two Weapon Wielder (TWW) talents off set the penalty of using a second weapon by 20; total modifer of -20/-20.
• Ambidextrous offsets the penalties for using two weapons by 10 for each hand/weapon.
• Combining Ambidextrous and the TWW talents reduces the penalty down to a total -10/-10.

Swift Attack requires a full-round attack action to use. This grants you two attacks. It CAN be combined with wielding two weapons, but you only get two attacks with one weapon, and one attack with the other. This also goes with Lightning Attack, which replaces Swift Attack's benefit with the ability to make three attack with one melee weapon.

Furious Assault CANNOT be combined with Swift Attack, Lightning Attack or Two Weapon fighting, as Furious Assault can only be used with All O maneuver, which is its own full-round attack action. The strike must succeed after any attempt by the target to actively defend themselves, so a successful dodge or parry ends the potential for the second strike. You still determine all results of the first attack before attempting the second, and the second attack can still trigger whether you manage to do any damage with the first attack.

In case you were wondering, a Charge action cannot be combined with any of the above talents for additional melee attacks, either, as it is its own full-round action.

For more detailed descriptions and explanations, check out pages 11 and 12 of the Errata.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Post Script: Beaten to the punch again. (Vigorously shakes fist at No1) Oh well. Kudos sir.

Thanks.

I am satisfied ( but still wondereing Why should I take TWW and ambidextrious to have the same effect as swift attack)

W1nterKn1ght said:

It's not quite the same effect. TWW and ambi allows you to make two attacks (one for each weapon in your hands) while swift attack allows you to make two attacks with one weapon. So if you wanted to make two attacks with a power weapon, the first method requires you have two such weapons (one in each hand) while the latter only requires the one.

Someone with all three talents would get to make 3 attacks with a multiple attacks action.

Note that from a munchkin point of view, fighting with two weapons is hardly worth it. Especially once you get your hands on a mono best-crafted great weapon. The -10 penalty is harsh. Plus there are no weapons of comparable damage that can be used one-handed unless you're talking BC chain/power weapons...which are expensive.

Nihilius said:

Unless the munchkin wants to parry.

Or if you are fighting an enemy with a high chance of dodging or parrying your attacks, then being able to land more attacks is preferable because you stand a better chance of the target failing his dodge/parry or running out of reactions. Because of this, I did some calculations and found the following:

- When you are comparing half-action aim + attack with two weapon attack (with ambidextrous) then the two weapon attack lands more hits if your effective WS* is 31 or higher. At 30 they are the same, and 29 or less then the single attack works better.

- For swift attack vs swift attack + two weapon attack, 30 is also the break even point and two weapon attacks do better at higher WS.

- For lightning attack vs lightning attack + two weapon attack, 40 is the break point.

But the requirement for two weapon wielder (melee) is a WS of 35. So it will be a very rare occasion where it lands less blows than only using one weapon. If you are slightly below the threshold you might still use the attack with both weapons because it is only slightly worse, but it has the chance to land more blows than only using one weapon.

*After applying all modifiers.

If the munchkin has quick draw then the great weapon has another disadvantage: As it's a two handed melee weapon, quick draw doesn't apply to it.

Some munchkins might even like dropping grenades at their own feet during melee. Probably grenades that they are immune to, but some acolytes are willing to take greater risks than others.

Lastly you need to consider the paragon talent Storm of Blows. If a PC meets the requirements (WS 35, AG 40) and has all the talents it will replace, I don't see anything in the RAW to say that a character has to ascend before it applies.

Hi

Thanks for your answers.

But Bilateralrope said:

Can you enlighte me?

Why does TWF and AMBI improve my parry?

AFIU the rules you can parry only once even if you have two weapons.

Greets WK

W1nterKn1ght said:

I think this was more in reference to the use of a best-quality mono great weapon which, being unwieldy, you cannot parry with.

Your other points are entirely correct. There isn't really any benefit to parry from wielding more than one weapon other than having one that is defensive and/or balanced while the other is not (but then you don't need any special talents to make use of this benefit). You can parry more than once but that is to do with the Wall of Steel or Temple Assassin Traits rather than how many weapons you are holding (as long as you are holding something that you can parry a blow with).

Khouri has it correct. If you're using an unwieldy two-handed weapon, you can't parry. (Unless you have a utility mechadendrite)

Brother Praetus said:

However using dual shot and/or independent targeting is also considered a full round action yet you can do so with the weapons on semi/full auto which doing so themselved is also considered a full action. Is this considered an exception?

Rashid ad Din Sinan said:

It is explicitly noted that when fighting with two pistols they can be fired on any fire mode as part of a full round multiple attacks action.

Independent targeting is a talent that extends the basic limit between ranged targets and doesn't take up any actions to use by itself.

Dual shot doesn't explicitly state, but strongly implies, that you can only use this talent with weapons set to single-shot mode (i.e. it gives you the option to use a Full Action to make a special attack rather than the normal multiple attack with two pistols).

Khouri said:

So the answer is yes, firing a weapon on semi/full auto is normally itself a full action but allowing to fire two as part of a full action multiple attack is indeed a rule by exception.

I can vouch for that two-weapon fighting is not a waste. An Assassin with two-weapon talents, ligthening attack, crushing blow (or whatever gives +2 dam per attack), quickdraw, assassins strike, wall of steel, a power blade and a lathe blade is extremely deadly and can dodge and parry a bunch of attacks per every round. Great Weapons are potentially awesome, especially at low levels, but with talents two-weapon fighting can be extremely dangerous.. and cool.

Bilateralrope said:

or a buckler strapped to your arm, balanced and doesn't take up a hand.

or before you end your turn you quick draw another weapon that is balanced, which you then effectively throw away/(or quick draw put it back away, no RAW saying you can't do 2 free actions in a round) before attacking on your next turn. This could even be a defensive shield, so +15% to parry.

Most of this is just to show it is kind of silly. Most of the penalty for using a great weapon is in the fact of only getting 3 attacks with lightning attack instead of 4 with a 1 handed weapon and TWW. A tech priest with an Omnissian axe (which is a 1 handed weapon, and better than a great weapon, and he could still be dual weilding other weapons) is much better.

Brother Praetus said:

What if you have prenatural speed as a death cultist and you can lightning attack as a half action? Then can you do the furious assault action with it? Seems like you should be able to as you are increasing the half action to a full action.

Suijin said:

The only thing you can't do in this instance with a great weapon is parry a counter attack done by an opponent after you hit them. You can still dodge their counter attack if you have that reaction left.

Sujin - Counter-attacks are for if they parry, if you hit than they can't counter. Yes your right though, the great weapons cannot parry due to unwieldy - however, you still cant use Furious Assault because it specifically states you can only make use of it in conjunction with an all out attack, which is a full action and not reduced by preternatural speed. You *have* to use All Out Attack to make use of it.

Additionally, you can quickdraw something to parry with and than put it away if you have quickdraw, yes, but you can *not* ready a great weapon with a quick draw as per errata. Therefore you would have to un-ready the great weapon as its two handed before you can draw something else, draw, and parry. All this is allowed via quickdraw. You can your parrying weapon or put it back away, but than you have to spend a half action to ready your great weapon again. So you can attack, sure, but you cant do much else.

Rakiel said:

I'm pretty sure counter attack is if you parry then you get to make an attack at a penalty. I was saying if the enemy parries your attack and counter attacks against you, then you can't parry that attack because you are currently attacking with a great weapon. Dodge is still an option for that case.

Why would it take a half action to ready a great weapon that you are already holding in one hand, if you have quickdraw?

from page 193 of DH Core:

Ready (Half Action)
You can draw a weapon or retrieve an object stowed in a
pouch or pocket. You can also put an item away that you are
currently holding. So, you could holster a pistol and unsheathe
a knife as one Half Action. You can also use this Action to do
such things as apply a medi-patch, inject stimm or some other
kind of drug, or coat a weapon with the contents of a vial of
poison, for example. You may use the Ready Action twice in
one Turn if you are preparing two different items.

From errata on Quick draw:

Quick Draw on page 121 should have the fi nal sentence
expanded to: “You can Ready as a Free Action when you are armed
with a Pistol or Basic class ranged weapon, or a melee weapon that
can be wielded in one hand.”

The great weapon is already drawn, just not useable with one hand only. It is already out.