Reading the text of Lindel's special ability I really don't understand how it could work in the Campaign setting...

Could we change "skill" card in the text with "feat" card? I think this would be work better even in vanilla setting...

Lindels special ability loses much from its impact in the advanced campaign. However, Lindel could get a skill from a razed city.

I think Lindel is rather a Vanilla Descent hero. I think I would not pick him in the advanced campaign.

I mean: with an ability like that it will be IMPOSSIBLE to use Lindel in RtL or in SoB, even if you really want it!

Instead, I'd see better to change the feat cards (once per area), assuming you're playing with them (ToI stuff is required, of course): probably this ability will fit both in vanilla and in Campaign settings.

Why should it be impossible to play Lindel in the advanced campaign?

Yes, his special ability may not be the best for the campaign, but it can still be used.

Graf said:

How can you change a skill EVERY TIME you enter a new area? It means that you can choose a skill (from one of the three skill decks) EVERY TIME you enter a new dungeon level?

This means to destroy all the tactics present in RtL and SoB, and to overcome one of the most important rule of the Campaign: to obtain a new skill after visiting a city and paying the appropriate amount of gold for it!

Of course you can use still Lindel in your campaign...but without his ability, because it simply overcomes all the principles of the game in campaign setting!

Lindel is just as playable in Campaign as he would be in Vanilla Descent. I don't understand how people over think these things? And how can you change a skill every time? Well that is simple as per the ability. Each new area I enter I "may" swap out my existing skill with a new one. Which consists of me drawing a new card from the skill deck. which as easy as taking my hand and lifting a card from one of the 3 skill decks. That is how.

TheHunterBoy said:

I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make.

I believe Lindel's ability is to discard one of his current skills and get a random new skill from the same category. So you won't have your pick of all three categories until you've actually obtained skills from all three categories in the usual way, nor will you be able to pick the perfect skill for every new dungeon level. And it never increases your total available skills, it only replaces old skills with new ones, so you still need to train the same total number of times.

It does mean that you can theoretically pick up a skill without ever going to the city that normally sells it, if you're patient. I mean, more than just the one starting skill that every hero gets that ignores trainers.

Men, the point is simple: assuming that Lindel get already at least one skill for each category, since that point he actually can get ALL the skills avaliable in the game simply entering a new Dungeon level (I'm talking 'bout a Campaign setting)!

I simply think that this ability doesn't fit well in a Descent Campaign. But, hey, it's still my personal point of view..

Only experience will sway your opinion. Use him in a campaign and see what you think.

IMHO, I think that in Copper, he's not that great (he's got good stats yes, but high CP), in Silver he has at best a slight advantage and in Gold, the other heroes will feel superior to him since they've specialized while he's generalized.

-shnar

shnar said:

I agree. Only after playing we can say if Lindel is or not fit for a Descent Campaign.

One thing is sure: he's going to reclame the sceptre of the "best hero ever" of the Descent world: strong and very fast, die to hard and able to become everything he wants: a great warrior, a good archer or a powerful mage....and can always change his skills from a Dungeon to another one, making pretty hard for the OL to figure out a good strategy to block him.

Simply the best ever seen. And maybe too much powerful.

If by "sure" you mean "extremely unlikely".

With a conquest value of 5, I seriously doubt he's better than mediocre. His stats and traits are only a bit better than what other heroes have, and in some cases worse. You seem to think his ability is going to utterly destroy the game, which is pretty much the only way I can imagine he would even come close to being the "best hero ever," but I really think it's only a mediocre ability at best.

Your claims to the contrary frankly sound like mad ravings. I can't tell whether you think the ability works radically differently from how I think it works or if you're just playing a completely different game than me, but in the game I play, a random skill is usually a lot worse than a cherry-picked one, and has negligible chance of upsetting any plan the overlord has in progress for the current room.

shnar said:

I don't understand this line of reasoning. There's nothing stopping Lindel from specializing. He can't really specialize in melee because of his ranged and magic skills, but in any other area he's still quite capable. Only if every other character has 3 starting dice instead of 2 will they seem "more specialized":

Ranged combat: Able Warrior + Rapid Fire + Inner Fire = 5 movement and 2 attacks every turn, plus another 2 attacks if he needs them.

Wizardy: Knight + Eagle Eye + Vampiric Blood = 3 movement and 3 attacks every turn, which are blasts or breaths given the right treasures.

Tank: Taunt + Deflect Arrows + Willpower + heavy armor + shield = good armor vs. everything but melee (and decent armor against that). That's probably not the best combo either, I'm no good at making tanks.

Runner: Tiger Tattoo + Acrobat + Divine Retribution = 6 speed, 6 faitgue, and gets to blow stuff up when the OL kills him, which can be a strong deterrent at Gold level when many monsters aren't getting one-shotted.

Those are just combos of 3 skills. By gold he should have 4 or 5 skills and will be able to get the ones he wants without having to trek across the planet to buy them. Granted, he's not the perfect runner or tank, but he's only going to have to fill that role if you got a bad draw for the rest of the characters.

James McMurray said:

The thing to remember, though (as Antistone has said a couple of times now) is that Lindel only replaces his existing skills with random draws. There's only one of each skill in the appropriate deck, and Lindel can only swap a skill when a new area is revealed (or once per area that has been revealed - that timing question should be clarified.)

The point is, he can't just pick the skills he wants to handle each dungeon level. Sure he can go for a specialized combo that makes him a great tank or a great archer or whatever, but there's no guarantee he'll get it quickly. It's all random. If any one of those skills you listed ends up being drawn (or trained) by another hero then he's pooched for that combo. As far as I know, there's no way for a hero to return a skill he's got once he starts play with it.

Also, last time I checked if the heroes flee or finish a dungeon, that area gets crossed out ont he record sheet. The heroes can't go back there. Which means Lindel only has a limited number of times he can use his ability. Granted it's a large number, but it's not infinite, which means he can never be guaranteed of getting that combo he's trying so hard for every time he chucks a skill and gains another. As with so much else concerning heroes, it will depend largely on luck.

If Lindel wants to drag the rest of the party around to every dungeon he can find just to gain access to new areas and swap his skills, I as OL would not have issue with it. My LTs will still be going about their business, collecting quest items or razing cities - largely unhindered by the sounds of it if the heroes are marching around one random dungeon after another just to give this guy more skill draws. It's highly likely I will complete my plot and win before Lindel gets lucky enough to put together 3-5 "totally awesome" skills by random draw. He's probably better off just going to the approriate city and buying those skills like everyone else if he's really serious about getting a combo.

Yes, Lindel's ability is cool. It plays with the game mechanics in a new and interesting way. I'm looking forward to using him and seeing exactly how it works out, both in vanilla and AC. But I'm certainly not going to cry wolf about his being overpowered until I see it in action. It doesn't look half as bad as Truthseer Kel, IMHO.

TheHunterBoy said:

I wouldn't rouch him with a barge pole. Not in Vanilla, not in Advanced Campaigns. 5CT for a 16/1 that is discouraged to wear heavy armour (and use shields if he uses magic weapons)?

As an OL, I'd rather see him in the hero party than Red Scorpion!

James McMurray said:

That's exactly why. The few campaigns I've played, at most only 1 of the 4 heroes doesn't have 3 trait dice in their specialty. So, they're already ahead and with fewer CTs. By the time Gold runs around, they will have already cherry-picked the skills they want to make their specialty excel at less cost to the party, but Lindel will have had to spend more. And, depending on the player, he'll probably have not specialized on one area but spread it around a little more (on skills) just so he can randomly draw from the different skill decks.

I only see two advantages to Lindel in the Advanced Campaign: 1) he can randomly draw a skill that could belong to a city that's been razed and thus no longer available to the party (but being random, the chances are low of getting the skill he really wants) and 2) he could discard an Exhausted skill and get a fresh one without having to unexhaust the skill (from Sea of Blood).

IMHO, neither of those advantages are worth the extra CTs...

-shnar

Corbon said:

A joke? No. Maybe you're joking...

Well...in the games I played so far a hero with 16 life points and 2 black dice in each trait (and a speed of 5) is a great hero. Am I mad to say this?

After this, try to give to him a good skill (fight, subterfuge or magic are exactly the same thing for Lindel), a decent weapon/rune and a strong armor, and Lindel will become the leader of your party. BTW, I think so...

When I stated "The best hero ever seen in Descent" I considered that never before I've seen an hero who can change his profile so quickly during a single game. Lindel is a kind of "mutant" hero, a singular case in the entire landscape of the Descent heroes.

Actually I don't know if his special ability would be a blessing or a curse. I really think Lindel is unique. Too powerful? Maybe yes, maybe no: we'llse soon.

TheHunterBoy said:

He changes skills, but they're random. He can "change his profile" often, but he doesn't have a choice in what he gets. He really needs the sheer number of levels in an advanced campaign to be able to eventually get to what he wants, and even then it's not like he can go from "beastly at magic" to "beastly at ranged or melee" in a single dungeon, at least not with extreme amounts of luck.

TheHunterBoy said:

Who cares how many black dice he has in the traits he's not using? He only attacks with one weapon at a time. And carrying a second weapon of a different type cuts down on his ability to carry potions or other items.

He's certainly the most versatile hero - that's the whole point - but he's also worth a whopping 5 CT. And if you give him heavier armors to increase survivability, then forget about that speed of 5. If you give him lighter armors so he can still run, he'll be easier to kill.

It's hard to make any declarations about balance without actually playtesting an idea; even initially 'broken' concepts might be fine once new strategies have been devised to counter. But 5 CT in a game where it's pretty easy to die just seems really harsh.

mahkra said:

Who cares??! I care!

I care 'bout an hero who can easly pass from to be a good archer to become a great mage, depending on what the player wants! And this is possible since Lindel will be the only one hero of Descent who'll start with 2 dice in each trait! Of course, when I go to upgrade a specific trait during the game I don't care 'bout the other ones.

I think Lindel would be the "ideal fourth" in a party with the issue of "what trait is the weakest one?" So, if you need more magic power or more melee strenght in the group, just adjust the right trait of Lindel in order to solve the matter! And this is very very easy to do, thanks his two starting dice in each trait!

My only fear it's reagarding Lindel's special ability: it seems not the best (and many people out there think so), expecially if you're playing a Campaign and want that a specific skill goes to a specific hero (not Lindel), and not randomly drawn by Lindel when he enters a new Dungeon.

Yes, he's versatile and can fit into any party, but once you've actually chosen a build for him, those 2 dice in the other traits don't add any benefit at all. Really all it gives him is an opportunity to switch weapons mid-dungeon to make use of an otherwise-unusable treasure draw. But he doesn't appear to be particularly built for survival, and he's worth 5 CT!

But, like I said, it'll take some testing by various groups to see which concerns about this new hero are actually warranted.

I think his ability is interesting, but hardly broken. In a regular dungeon crawl game he will only be able to use it from 5 to 8 times depending on the dungeon. There are sixty skills in the game, and assuming 4 heroes are being used with 3 starting skills each, that leaves 48 skills to cycle through. Not very good odds of Lindel getting what he wants. For the campaign game he can use it alot more often, but it would take a tremendous amount of time for him to use it effectively. Assuming the other three heroes each have one ability from one of the the three decks and Lindel has another from the deck he wants to cycle trough, that would mean he has to enter 18 different dungeon areas just to cycle through that one ability deck. This means alot of traveling if using the blitz tactic. If he wants to cycle through all the ability decks he has to travel to at least 54 different dungeon areas assuming no other skills are bought, or fully complete all three levels of 18 dungeons. This does not seem very efficient given that any specific skill can be had just by traveling to a particular city and buying it. Lindel could get lucky with his ability, but more often he might not.

Actually, come to think of it, how exactly is the skill deck managed?

What happens to discarded skills? Page 20 of the rulebook says "skill cards are never discarded." That's wrong even in the base game, but normally, the only time you can discarda skill is while you're selecting your starting skills, and in that case the discarded skill is reshuffled into the deck immediately after you draw the replacement (p.6). If you use the same procedure for Lindel, he's sampling with replacement, and it's possible he'll never get the skill that he wants; it'll certainly take longer on average. If you don't reshuffle them in immediately, do you reshuffle them in at all? In vanilla, the treasure decks are not reshuffled if exhausted, though feat decks are.

In Road to Legend, what happens to the skill decks when a hero trains a skill? Reshuffling might make sense, but I can't find a rule for it (in fact, I can't even find a rule that says that you get to choose which skill you want, only that skill availability is restricted by location - do you draw randomly from the skills available in your location?). If Lindel's discards aren't shuffled in immediately, are they shuffled in after heroes train? Can you train a skill that Lindel previously discarded?

TheHunterBoy said:

Umm, well, if I answer you might get insulted...
Greatness depends on a lot more than 16 wounds, 5 speed and not-quite-as-good-with-any-weapon-but-mediocre-with-all-weapons.

TheHunterBoy said:

ahh, NO!
Give Tahlia a decent skill, a decent weapon a strong armour and she will be better than Lindel. Give Kirga a decent skill, a decent weapon, a strong armour and she will be better than Lindel. Give Landrec a decent skill, a decent rune and even without a strong armour he will be better than Lindel. Substitute any number of heroes in place of Tahlia, Kirga and Landrec.
Heck, give Red Scorpion a decent skill, a strong armour and any decent weapon and she will be almost as good as Lindell, but not lose the game for her side. Nearly all quests start with the heroes at 5CT. Which means the OL only has to kill Lindel to win. That is all, game over, sorry it took longer to set up than play. One hero and he isn't even well armoured!

There are 5 recognisable roles in Descent.
He can't tank - he doesn't have the armour and costs too much CT.
He can runner, but he is dreadfully expensive when he is killed, and not that difficult to kill.
He gets outmaged by any mage with 3 dice.
He gets out-rangered by any ranger with 3 dice or 2 dice and a damage dealing special (Laurel, Bogran).
He gets out-damage-dealered by any warrior with 3 dice.

He basically just gets to be not quite as good as the specialists at whatever he chooses, while at the same time being a huge liability with that 5CT cost if he dies. The only thing he has going for him is that he can do everything not-very-well.

TheHunterBoy said:

Ahh, my mistake. I took 'best' to mean 'good' (in fact 'more good than any other hero', whereas you meant 'best' to be 'most flexible'. Yes, he is unique. Actually, so is every hero made!

TheHunterBoy said:

This might be the root of the misunderstanding here. To Lindel, the different skills are *not* exactly the same thing. Lindel cannot discard a Fight skill for a Magic skill. He can only discard a Fight for a Fight, and since it's a random draw, chances are good he won't get the skill he wants. In vanilla, he'll only be able to do so 4 or 5 times. In RtL, a few more times then that, but skill learning is not random in RtL (except at the very beginning), so it's kind of a silly ability. If Lindel is going to go out of his way and train in a skill, he'll probably just *pick* the skill he wants and therefore will never discard it for a different, random, potentially undesirable skill.

As I mentioned before, there are only 2 caveats, he might be searching for a skill no longer available because the city was razed, or he might ditch a Sea Of Blood "exhausted" skill for a non-exhausted one. Either way, the ability is definitely not worth the CTs...

-shnar

Corbon said:

Corbon, honestly, the life of the democracy is the difference between the opinions. And I respect your ones. So, feel free to continue your lection titled "How to play Descent". I'll feel free to continue to say that Lindel's profile seems (to me) the most intresting one, with its 6 total black dice (2+2+2), and I can't wait to test it in a Campaign: just 2 trait upgrades and Lindel could be a great warrior-mage in the same time (3 melee + 3 magic). Obviously, this is strictly my opinion, but the feeling is that Lindel could offer many different choices to his player, more than any other official hero in Descent does so far.

Lindel is not the best one? Maybe. But not me not you can estabilsh this point with accurancy, at now. Simply 'cause we still haven't tested Lindel in a real game setting.