Peacekeeper_b said:

Imagine it? I already ran a Dark Heresy game of it!

I don't feel that marines could have actual ancestors. What I do feel they can do is maintain relationships with their old families, which iirc the Ultramarines do considerably. In this way, a marine may know that his great grandfather's brother was chosen as a marine (and may still be fighting alongside him!) and the two can then relate to each other, remembering family and old stories.

Lukas of the space wolves was famous among the women folk of fenris bedding several in a night before he became space wolf. So It is possible he could have desendants and any other space wolves like him

from france

the key word is "before" then he wasn't a space wolf so no

The exact date that Space Marines start becoming space marines seems to vary quite a bit. The contestants from Damnation Crusade seemed quite a bit older then 12..

Further: in what way are space marines genetically altered? I went through the 'Creation of a Space Marine' with a fine toothed comb and, guess what? Other then one phrase which might, vaguly, refer to a relitivly mild genetic alteration, but sounds more like they're triggering already exisiting genetic sequences (increasing rod and cone structures in the eye) THERE IS NO GENETIC ANYTHING.

NONE.

It's entirly done through chemical manipulation and implanting bioengineered (magic) organs into them to regulate hormone levels. The genetic structure of the marine is not altered. Genetically speaking, there IS NO REASON that a marine cannot have children. (They would not be space marines, but...) This was heavilly implied (and then partially retconned) with the first Ultramarines novel. Replace 'Ancestor' with 'Grandfather' and the sequences with the young boy Uriel Ventris suddenly make a lot more sense, since it's obvious that Uriel had actually met the man.

(Further, Space Wolves seemingly bed women after they become Space Wolves, as implied by the story of Svengar the Red in Codex: Space Wolves when he discovers that the women were not women.)

BaronIveagh said:

Except that we don't know the full details of the processes used - the latest Blood Angels codex makes it clear that there isn't just a matter of just plugging in the new organs and pumping in the right drugs, and that each Legion developed their own techniques and methods of creating Marines (we knew about a couiple of these already - the exsanguination used by Blood Angels and the Cup of the Wulfen used by Space Wolves). Add to that the fact that many Marines change in ways other than those immediately linked to their organs, namely their broadly similar appearance (Blood Angels tend to be blond haired and fair of mein, in spite of their origins, while Space Wolves are almost universally hairy and fanged, and Salamanders tend towards extremely dark skin and red eyes), and there are a few things that suggest that the changes might be a little more thorough than bolting on a few more organs and a cocktail of chemicals.

But does mean they would have ancestor who became a space marine and does suggest that lukas was older than 12. Also certain ultramar families are famous for producing marines and are celebrated for the fact so you could have a famous lineage.

I know of know no children of space marines post modification.

eyeslikethunder said:

Hell, read the Space Wolves novels. Ragnar was acquainting himself vigorously with a girl he had fallen in love with the night his tribe was almost wiped out by their enemies, the Grimskulls. So, it is possible that there are descendants of Ragnar floating about Fenris, as well.

-=Brother Praetus=-

N0-1_H3r3 said:

WD 98 was pretty specific. I haven't read Codex: Blood Angels, since I am as opposed to Schumacher-esque nipples on body armor as most of you are to female space marines. My Lamenter's deserved better then this abomination.

That said, i have little doubt that there are rituals that go along with it (wouldn't be dimdark...errr...grimdark without them) but frankly the actual mechanics of it seem fairly straight forward.

And the fact that some space marines chapters have a malfunctioning melanochrome that changes their coloration is well known.

BaronIveagh said:

So plug-and-play organ implantation is your preferred interpretation... frankly, such a simplistic notion seems lacking, IMO. Personally, my preference has long been that over time many of the organs supplant the individual's natural genetics with the artificial ones contained within the implants, working their way in to be as integral to the Astartes' body as possible, with certain techniques in use by different chapters to help speed the changes (such as the exanguination rites of the Blood Angels, where an aspirant is implanted and then placed in a comatose state for a year while the preserved blood of their primarch is pumped through their veins, emerging almost fully-altered).

N0-1_H3r3 said:

The problem with that idea is that the implants are not all introduced at the same time. Neverminding that if they did so, the subject would die within weeks from replication errors giving rise to malignant cancers, the progenoid gland would not function (at least, not as described in fluff), since it requires pure dna from the other organs to develop fresh geneseed. If the subject were to experiance genetic contamination, so would the implants. If that were the case, geneseed production would steadily fall to the point that chapters would go extinct within a few generations.

BaronIveagh said:

Which assumes that the Emperor - known for his extensive knowledge of, and practical experience with, genetic engineering - was unable to account for all of it. Plus, when dealing with the works of a powerfully-psychic scientist, the inclusion of the reality-defying influence of the warp upon things is extremely convenient for circumventing all those pesky natural laws.

IMO, your mistake is assuming that it should work according to your understanding, when there's more than a little evidence to suggest that other beings have tried and failed to closely-examine the nature of, or even alter, the gene-seed for various reasons (such as Fabius Bile's attempts to unlock its secrets and improve upon them) have failed. IMO, there's more to the process of creating a Space Marine than the basic descriptions given for each of the implants, and more to the implants than most who know about them within the setting understand.

40k becomes more coherent once you accept that the natural laws of its universe are routinely kicked in the crotch by the influence of the Warp...

N0-1_H3r3 said:

*sigh*

Well, as they say, turnabout is fair play, but I hate to use the same argument that people use on me when I say 'female space marines' so I won't point out how the fluff states very clearly what happens and how it takes place, and in what order.

I'll just point you to one key point.

If it worked that way, there would be no point in screening the applicants for tissue compatability (something that it's stated over and over and over in fluff) because the organs would simply re-write the recipient's DNA to match their own. Anyone could be a space marine, as long as they were mentally and physically fit and free of mutation. The apothacaries overseeing the process could just dose the subjects up on immuno supressants, sit back, and watch the genetic alchemy. In fact, as long as the geneseed being used was carefully screened, there wouldn't even need to be a test for mutation, as the organs would simply over-write it.

Amusingly enough, fluff implies that Bile does understand how it works, it's his idea of 'improvement' which is highly questionable. The AdMech has, on several occasions, successfully 'cured' strains of the geneseed of their manifest flaws (Lamenters). So it's not as big a mystery as you paint it. The problem is all those people going '*I* could do something like that!' or 'I wonder what happens if...'

Chaos legions steal geneseed because thier own becomes too rife with mutation to create new chaos space marines. It's stated in the fluff that the progenoid is, actually, quite sesitive to things like radiation, certain poisons, and sanity blasting abomination. Considering that CSM's practically wallow in all of the above...

BaronIveagh said:

The hormone alteration could be enough to cause infertility. That's how the pill works in women.

from france

then they could be children of ragnar before he was a space wolf but not children of ragnar when he became a space wolf. so you till don't have a space marine lineage. at best you have a lineage base on a potential stock for space marine breed.

Bilateralrope said:

Possibly, I simply stated there was no genetic reason for it. And the piull does not actually cause infertility, it merely tricks the woman's body into thinking it's already pregnant and prevents ovulation. Men don't have a hormonal signel that prevents production of sperm, though it might cause impotence? Hmm... Possible.

However, it would also be possible to adjust the hormonal cocktail to allow them to have childern, in theory if that was the only thing preventing it.

Amusingly enough, i don't think that they ever really considered this, since it used to be if a space marine removed their armor, they died. Now with that retconned, it leads to interesting situations like this.

the 8 spider said:

Ah, but see, you may still have a lineage. If there was fruit born from Ragnar's pre-Space Marine union, and if said child was male then it is possible the child may find themselves in a situation where they are "chosen." And since Ragnar has had the second Progenoid gland removed (as do all Space Marines eventually) it is a slim possibility said child could have been implanted with glands cultured from Ragnar's particular sample. This would create a wholly circumstantial lineage in a way. Though one likely to be short lived unless the fates saw fit to meddling with probability and the events became somehow cyclic and repetitive.

Possible, yes. Likely, not really. Even with the fickle influence of the Warp, there's just too much going against the likelihood. Even more so if we extend things out several generations before such an offshoot lineage might actually occur.

-=Brother Praetus=-

from france

so brother praetus what you said just confirmed my point of wiew. the theorie that a monkey with a computer can write a intelligeable book is of the same category. possible in the absolute but so unlikely to happen that it will never happen.

so the only possibility for me is that a lineage of normal human, strange notion in this universe, is adopted by space marine to carry the task and burden of being a space marines. lets says that in a familly each generation the chapter the most promising candidate. so you have space marines having a lineage and not as mentioned before he other way.

the 8 spider said:

I am fairly certain the above was not intended to be some sort of half-handed insult directed at me, and thus will choose to not be offended by it. Just because my friends children call me "Uncle Monkey" and use me like a Jungle Jim... Sheesh.

the 8 spider said:

I merely illustrated that something is not impossible, merely improbable. From the perspective of one running a game, it is intended to be food for thought when weighing the requests of a player for a concept of a character. And yes, it seems that there is some off-hand materials that infer that there may be a couple-few chapters who may indeed perform such practices. It is entirely possible there could be a chapter which recruits from family lines due to an exceptional track record of both zygote compatibility as well as tendencies to excel in combat and/or leadership roles.

The truth is out there.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Brother Praetus said:

"Once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, will be targeted and destroyed with the vulcan megabolter, possibly followed with an orbital lance strike." - Inquisitor Pyrobolos

from france

o brother of course their is no insult. you know my post and me since a long moment to know that i do no insult i merely used sarcasme from time to time. . and it wasn't one. it was a reference to a real hypothesis.

and for the familly it's like a chosen planet with potential for recrute on a much smaller scale.

My personal take on this issue (Marine Procreation) is that the Emperor was to some extent experimenting with each Primarch/Legion and creating a certain degree of variation among them in order to find out which was the most successful. He intentionally created a legion that was more prone to berserker behaviour (World Eaters), he intentionally created a legion that was more prone to developing psychic powers (Thousand Sons) and he intentionally created a legion that was going to be reliable and stable (Ultramarines.) No doubt his long term plan was to see which versions would work, and from there create new generations of Primarchs based upon the successes in future millenia. If the Horus Heresy hadn't happened.

As such, the attitude towards procreation among marine chapters will vary depending upon the inclinations and genetic purpose of its members. Space Wolves, for example seem to enjoy sex, and probably take a fairly blase attitude towards contraception. Possibly the reason the Fenrisians are known for being so tough is that there's a very good chance that many of them are the literal descendants of Leman Russ, even before they become Space Marines. (I always liked to think that the reason Russ left Bjorn the Fell Handed behind was that he was actually Russ' son.) One can imagine that such arrangements aren't unheard of in other chapters.

Conversely, many other chapters may have either completely sublimated their sexual urges into violence (World Eaters) or developed elaborate pschological devices to suppress them using faith and shame (Imperial Fists, I'm looking at you.) Equally, one would imagine that some other chapters may be so extreme in their psychology or physiology that they are either unable to procreate or have absolutely no interest in doing so. (Blood Angels)

I would group them up like this:

Ultramarines, Space Wolves, Salamanders, White Scars - tolerant of a certain level of procreation among their members and home world humans within narrow "don't ask don't tell" limits, with strict controls over nepotism. Dalliances with "normal" humans are not encouraged, (or even practically possible most of the time, given how much time marines spend travelling, training, warring etc) but do occasionally occur, and are regarded without much interest by senior officers. One can imagine that within these four chapters there is a spectrum of interest in such relationships, with the Space Wolves proabbly doing this sort of thing a lot more than, for example, the Ultramarines.

Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Dark Angels - Intolerant of human/marine relationships, regarding themselves very much as military orders along the old knights crusader model. Such dalliances may occur, but are probably punishable, and depending upon the inclination/ruthlessness of the chapter authorities, may result in the execution of the humans/offspring involved.

Blood Angels, Iron Hands - Would have philosophical objections to any dalliance, and most members probably aren't interested anyway, due to their vastly changed physiology. Blood Angels are more interested in blood and bloodshed and the Iron Hands aspire to leave the messy business of humanity behind if possible.

Successor chapters may or may not follow the example of their forbears, with variations in all directions. (One can imagine the Black Templars probably take a harder line on this sort of thing than the Imperial Fists, for example.)

Even in the most "liberal" chapters on this issue though, one would imagine that the vast majority of Marines wouldn't actually have much interest in procreation or sex. They no doubt regard themselves as fundamentally changed individuals, their past lives as "normal humans" probably seeming a bit like one's childhood does to an adult. A marine would probably regard a fellow marine pursuing a relationship with a "normal" human In the same way you might look askance at a work colleague who started showing some bizarre interest in some aspect of their childhood (carrying around a safety blanket all the time, or reading ABC books). They would probably regard themselves as largely having moved beyond this stuff and regard those who apparently haven't as strange.