PC's falling unconcious vs dying is clearly dileanted in rules. Same is not so for NPC's/monsters.

Has anyone found particular rules or approaches to deciding (a) if any fallen foes are not actually dead; (b) trying to subdue foes and not kill them.

For the latter, I think using entangling weapons etc. is fairly clear avenue (don't drop someone with your halberd and Thunderous Blow and then ask if they're still alive to question).

Hi,

I'm not sure what the rules say, but I allow (in every System I'm playing) that my player can subdue NPC.

As soon as they are down, they are down dead, killed or unconscious. The PC had to say it, what they want. And it usally works, sometimes the die netherless, or sometimes the killed bad guy has a reappearance - scarred - once more. My player learned, that is better to leave someone presumable for dead, than to behead, the dead, burn the body and put the ashes into a river.

If it plot evident, that they catch him they have to use nets, or grapple him or something like that. Because usually if you want to catch someone it ment UNHARMED. e.g. the runnaway daughter of the merchant, or the musician the agent wants to have under his contract (to later sing in a ritual)

In every System I played it is far more easy to kill someone, that to knock him out. ( D&D -4. Savage world -2, WFRP 1st: -20 to hit the head....) and I was sick of it. Why? Three reasons

1) I don`t want my players be maniac killers, who kill everyone just because it is easier (see above) - They enter a house of a merchant to gather evidance for a cult and there is the servant/night guard who hears 'em and come looking. He is just a innocent - so they don't have to kill him. They don't have to leave a bloody trace around the old world and be barred from all cities. because there's a warrant out.

Yeah I know it is a grim wolrd. In my grim world, the grim is, that the players and PC must always be on their toes, they never get a rest: they always are in the dirt road, because fighting the chaos doesn't pay well. And it is grim enough, that you have to kill mutant infants just because they are mutants.

Warhammer was always a Chutullu Fantasy. The nice Inn keepers daughter, which flirted with you was in a chaos cult (see Geheimnisnacht - Felix and Gotrek): it is not fairytale DnD Fantasy

2) sometimes NPC who are near death (have a lot of wounds) say: "I wield". And the player have to cope with that- You don't have to let the thief fight to his own death. Most people won`t. If a thief get's caught he will be in prison, maybe loose his hands, but he will live. So when he sees that he's going to die he surrender. Players are not always happy about that either.

3) In real life - in combat most people get down and are out of fight. Here some numbers of a real world fight :

Battle of gettyburg (more or less a random one) causualties of the union : 23,055 (3,155 killed , 14,531 wounded, 5,369 captured/missing) Three times as much wounded as killed. If you caught some bigger junk of metall with your body (bullet or sword) you don't want to fight anymore and your body takes controll of you. It say's I out of here and passes out ( zero wounds)

So I hope you can make something yout of my ranting and can use it for your campaign

greets

WK.

Thanks,

We have a common view I think on point that I have a rather dim view of players downing foes with pointy edged things wielded all out, and then only after downing them saying, "any still alive to question?" Sheesh, if you want prisoners you should take care how you down foes etc. and if anything it's harder to down them (we want him alive and also not so badly wounded he won't regain consciousness for days).

This does more into house rules I guess.

I think I'm inclined to say (a) with weapons that inflict criticals less frequently, say 4+, reflecting their less deadly nature (gauntlet, quarterstaff, main gauche, unarmed attack, improvised, star, whip) the wound that drops someone is less likely to kill them, and on the 2-3 range weapons - all the pointy ones etc, the wound that drops someone is more likely to kill them.

So efforts to target a foe to deal non-killing damage should see CR value increased +1 (e.g., if critical triggered on 2 boons, now it's on 3 boons etc.) and if using a weapon with base CR under 4, then also add a misfortune die to the pool to reflect fact you're trying to use it in less than optimal fashion.

If you a foe saying you were trying not to kill them, roll a fortune die, on success they're still alive. Otherwise, they're only still alive on an boon result.

Spend fortune points if you want to roll more than one fortune die and take the one you want as the one governing outcome.

I just read the rules. Even GM should do that from time to time and it is statet ( ToA.41) If the wounds reach the total the NPC is defeated . - somethink like that.

Defeated, means the NPC could be alive.

Just a thought