Inspired by that other thread on the Sisters (here), and my musings on the subject, I was wondering if the Deathwatch marine rules could be used to model the Sisters in the Rogue Trader era sense?

Back then the Sisters were basically female space marines, and they were more than a match for the marines in a fight (the Sisters 'policed' the marines).

Marines would be moved more towards my ideas on them (here), and the sisters get one hell of an upgrade. In order to keep them up with the Marines they would have to become 'Amazons' - genetically modified to improve their performance (or taken from 'Amazon' stock). The may lack implants, but they gain natural abilities plus chemical enhancers. You could tack on 'faith based powers' to give them an edge like the marines.

As to why one of these RT era Sisters would be following around the Deathwatch?

Policing.

It's what the Sisters do: get in other people's business.

The Sister (or Sisters) may be helping the killteam at times, but they may also be watching the marines for deviancy. This could introduce a new dynamic to the role play, as the Sisters my say when they think the marines are going too far.

Marines may be the ultimate xenos hunter of the Imperium, but the Sisters are the ultimate law enforcers. The fact the Sisters like the Imperial Church, and the marines often see the Emperor as a man not a god, is only going to stir up trouble.

?

Philip

Ack!

More seriously, though, other than being physically weaker (though that's an arguable point) and not getting the toys ("Astartes"-grade gubbins notwithstanding), there's very little difference between a Marine and a Sister in the first place. Sure, they might not win an arm-wrestling contest, but it basically comes down to training and skill, at least it does when you get over the perspective that Marines have to be better because they're awesomez.

Kage

Philip S said:

It all seems to be quite artificially construed. But so what? I can't remember how many times after one PC died accidentally a stranger with different abilities came along to take his part. Totally construed but real world concerns sometimes necessitate that.

The long and short of it is, if you want female space marines or female support of the marines, do so by all means. I wouldn't expect too much public support by people here though.

Me, I guess I would simply offer any female players the role of female senior OX acolytes as per DH rules. They have skills that the marines lack and they can be granted access to all kinds of hi-tech equipment through their Inquisitor to make them nearly on par with marines.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Yes, an Ascencion female (or not) character from the Ordo Xenos could perfectly join a Deathwatch Kill-Team.

I totally agree !

The "fluff" of the 40k universe should not stop you from doing or adapting your world.

But be warned that GW Fan Boys will not always agree with you.

From a genetical stand point women endure pain much batter then man and would have the highest rate of survival for the Space Marine bio-enhencement IMO. Women actually give birth... we just look and faint...

Philip S said:

Sorry - no way the SoB's are the equal of Space Marines - For starters the Space Marines are Enhanced through Gentic manipulation and surgery and Well trained - the SoB's are just regular humans, well trained.

I think Phil is aware of the current 40k relative abilities of SoB and Marines, Darq...he's referring to modelling/creating a new setting which allows SoB to be at the same level as Marines, as they were back in the day in 1987. I think if that's the way you want to go with your games, more power to your elbow!

Personally, as I guess I'm at heart a "GW fanboy," I might find that approach a bit jarring...so I'd need to open my mind really wide for it to work. Nothing wrong though with diverting from and innovating within the 40k setting, though; and this is very much Phil's specialty!

Is the entire premise based off that image from the RT rulebook which has a "nun in power armour" shooting Brother Vermillion? Doesn't that just show a Sister shooting a Marine as an enforcer, not that she's tripped out gene-modified?

On the other hand, as a Phil-weirdverse musing, heh, it works...

Kage

Lightbringer said:

LOL Ok REAL Old School Rogue Trader - Not the RPG. I went back and consulted with the dusty tome - and it doesn't say anything (I could find) to counterdict the current version of SoB's. The Adeptus Soritas were ORGANIZED the same way as the Space Marines - I didn't see anywhere that it said they were enhanced as Space Marines are.

Kage2020 said:

Agreed! Its certainly not for us to tell anyone how to run their game - I was merely trying to offer reference materials.

Kage2020 said:

I think another thing you need to consider, if you are going for Old School Adeptus Soritas is they were basically the Ecclisastic police force. They kept the other Adeptus in line, as originally presented, they wouldn't be hunting Xenos.

Philip S said:

I just threw up in my mouth...

H.B.M.C. said:

I quite literally laughed my ass off at this. Are you serious!?

First, if this is your general tactic at any form of 40k discussion I think that you need to actually consider who you use it against. This is going to come off as arrogant, but seriously? Have you ever contributed to a "serious" discussion of the 40k lore? Ever?

You made me pull out the nerd-rage. It's been a while since, once again literally, I spluttered.

Secondly, I'm perfectly aware of the physical differences. You might want to have a few neurons firing and consider why I might have made that suggestion. Could it be, perhaps, that when you boil it down to essentials that physical strength isn't really a consideration when you're using guns, especially when you move your ass out of a medieval mindset—quite literally in this case, it would appear—physical strength is not the be all and end all that it is outside of pissing contests on the school playground?

Why do you think that guns are so popular? Because they are a force multiplier. It doesn't really make one fig of difference about physical strength when you move beyond physical bullying. About the only thing that might jockey for attention is the idea that Marines are "awesomez" and, therefore, have to be better than bullets. This is an admittedly very popular stance in teenage fantasies along with Salma Hayek and other individuals that figure prominently in "private time."

Make sure that you let your wet-nurse know when you're playing on the Internet.

Kage

Kage2020 said:

No problem, what goes up must come down. And whoever gets enraged sooner or later gets de-raged. One just has to sit there and wait and it happens all by itself eventually. ;-)

Kage2020 said:

Errr... you are aware that modern combat is about more than just pulling the trigger of a gun? I've had a female US solider tell me about that once at least (pulling a wounded comrade out of the line of fire? hauling stuff? breaking down barriers?).

Also I doubt you will find many females on "Task Force 373", though that's speculation.

And I don't even have to mention that in the 40K universe melee combat is (for cineastic purposes) of greater tactical importance than in the real world even.

As for Space Marines are "awesomez", all you have to do is watch the video about Deathwatch in the download section again.

Alex

RT era sisters were the enforsers of the astartes "5 sisters leading the origonal 5 covens of SOB all swarn to enforce and protect the imperium by the emporer when they were taking before him to see his true majesty" they were not gene enhanced as marines were they had no "gene seed " so to speak but they were also more than human with other implants like extended life , muscle grafts and potetially subdermal armour........ bassically the human equivilant of some of the marine funkyness plus they have unqustionable faith dot which give them their acts of faith which can quite easily put them on par with a marine or even exceed a marine in the right cercustances. so for my two cents yeah go for it, why not it could be fun and add a new twist to your 40k universe

What's more 40K than 6'6"-7' Amazon dominatrix nuns with strap-on power-armour using bolter-fu?

The only real objection seems to be that it would take away from the Space Marines. I think this highlights a problem with the Space Marines being a Swiss army knife for all situations instead of the focused role I imagine them to be used for. Space Marines should be a very specialised hammer, and instead they are becoming regular all rounder soldiers and all to human. Ordinary. It's a shame - I like the barely controlled, ex-hive scum, psychos they once were - that the only thing stopping them going one a genocidal killing spree or serial killing is the psycho-conditioning and electrograft implants. The old Marines default mindset was to kill everything that was not a Marine. This feral power was harnessed by the Imperium, making the worst of humanity perform the greatest heroic acts in service to mankind. Now that is awesome in its own twisted way.

That is not all that made them interesting - the old Marines were quite human, not demi-gods, but they were the 'wrong' type of human. The barabarian/ savage type, or more specifically (without the demonisation) tribal. The Rogue Trader era Space Marines they didn't have much in the way of implants other than the Black Carapace (that was it). They were enhanced (chemically) and seriously brainwashed, but they were human, and the fighting type of humans that naturally love war and are eager for battle (give power-armour and bolters to modern day street gangs and guess what they would do)

As a counter-part to these hardcore, old skool, no nonsense Marines were the Sisters. The Sisters were just as powerful (and just as nuts).

Old Skool Power armour: In both cases most of the power came from the armour, and looking at modern day exoskeletons being tested and how strong they are, it seems that power armour will be to combat and physical activity what a gun is to settling disputes: a great equaliser.

A woman in power armour is going to be just as strong as a man in power armour. Much the same as a women with a gun is just as effective as a man (the bullets impact with the same energy) - so a punch from a powered armour gauntlet, derived from the machine's NFBs not the persons muscles, is just as powerful no matter who is behind it.

Concept: The whole concept I'm suggesting is upgrading the Sisters to bring them back into line with the Space Marines, and seeing as so many Chapters of Space Marines are turing renegade and running off and doing their own thing, and quite a few fall to chaos, I think the Sisters are needed now more than ever.

Why: The reason for this is to allow women to join in the fun and have their power fantasies too.

Open background: As for the background I'm with GW in their original idea for 40K, that the rules could be used for any sic-fi, and the background can be expanded and altered, as mentioned on page 130 in the Imperium section intro;

• "It is for you - as gamesmasters and players - to use this information as you see fit. There is nothing to prevent you from expanding or altering the material given. In some cases this will be necessary if you are to derive the full benefit from the background,"

This idea for the Sisters is no different than a 'house rule' for the background.

Help me: What I am interested in hearing about is other's view as to how to make it work - your ideas and imagination - you know; the fun stuff!

In other words if GW upgraded the Sister to be on a par with the Marines, what would you suggest?

Philip

Philip S said:

I would suggest that a number of guys want to have a small area in life left where women can't intrude. ;-)

There's so much political correctness out there, a little bit of political incorrectness might be worth protecting. Not to mention that house rules as those suggested might always provide a solution for individual gaming rounds.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Intruding? This concept is for those who wish to include a female friend, and get back to 40K's roots. If a group does not want this: then it would not be for them.

As for 'political correctness' - which bit are you referring to? None of it seems 'PC' (as in the original concept of treating people with respect, or the lampooning nonsense demagogues come with).

Do you have any ideas for this retcon of bringing the Sisters back into line with the Marines?

Philip

Philip S said:

That's what I said: if you want to have Sisters of Battles as outlined in your game, more power to you. I guess there would be some serious eye-rolling among male gamers though if GW rewrote the current Canon to accomodate female players.

Philip S said:

I am referring the concept of changing the game world as it is now in order allow a female friend to play a female marine. As I have said before, if you like the idea, wonderful. I personally would have gone for the female Inquisitor route (better tie in with the Deathwatch too) but that's a matter of taste.

Me, I have only wondering about the prospect of a GW rewrite of current Canon in order to appeal more to female gamers. That's where the PC bit would come in, I guess.

If you want to make the Battle Sisters a match, just give them access to abilities that Marines don't have. Make them as acrobatic as a Harlequin troupe. Or make them more specialized (sharpshooters?) than marines. All that can be explained through very specialized training. The inidividual Sister wouldn't be as versatile as her Brother but she'd be better at what she's been trained in. No chemistry and cyberware, no deep explanations, needed for that. :-)

That would call for flat characteristic adv tables. 500 750 100 1250?

Alex

Not even going to try and get into arguing about supposed or hypothetical power levels here.

A Sister would be able to do many of the more covert things a Marine might not be able to. Blend into a crowd, coax information out of an unwilling target(the marines could arguably get the job done via intimidation, but...), fit into smaller spaces, sneak around far easier, handle the more fanatically devout types with a bit more finesse, etc.

She'd have to keep herself under control and not let her beliefs get the better of her, but if done right, the Sister could very easily end up being the most enjoyable character to play so long as the GM gives ample opportunities for her to exploit her strengths.

I've been playing 40k for over a decade and have read over 2 dozen 40k novels. Nevermind any fan boys, it is completely in line with the 40k universe to have a Sister accompany a Deathwatch team. The game master could easily create a story arc or premise for such a team. It's your game, let your imagination run wild.

Having said that . . .

In the real world the truth is often stranger than fiction; so don't put unnecessary constraints on the imaginations of players within a fantasy world.

Fluff changes over time, while that doesn't keep you from using that old stuff in your own games, it's a weak justification. A lot has changed since the Rogue Trader era, when Imperial Guard used to have Land Raiders and Rhinos, and Space Marines had hoverbikes for whole squads.

Changing the Sisters of Battle in to the police of the Space Marines, with or without enhancements, would radically change the background of the game, and the Imperium as a whole. As it is now, represented in the current fluff, various powerful organizations have tried to police the Space Marines, with varying results. For example, there's the example in the new Space Wolves Codex of the Echlisiarchy sending a fleet to Fenris when they heard that the people there were practising pagan religions, backed up by a force from the Sisters, and how it was a spectacular failure and a huge inter-whatever incedent as the Marines drove them off with an unrestrained use of force.

And then there's the Inquisitors that have had 'accidents' while investigating the Blood Angels and Dark Angels. Throughout the fluff the independence of the Space Marines is shown quite conclusively to be a double-edged sword, with the above examples showing the negative side, while their freedom from the more petty aspects of the Imperium, as well as playing an instrumental part in the downfall of Vandire and his (extra) tyranical reign. Could you imagine a man like Marius Haxx, ruler of the Calixis sector, in command of a Space Marine chapter or several?

crisaron said:

From a genetical stand point women endure pain much batter then man and would have the highest rate of survival for the Space Marine bio-enhencement IMO. Women actually give birth... we just look and faint...

Yeah, there's actually evidence proving that is (half) false. Women have more pain receptors in their skin than men, and generally less of the protien GIRK2, which affects pain threshold and how well painkillers work on a person. A woman's body can require double the amount of painkiller to get the same amount of relief as a man's body would need.

Pregnancy is the exception though, because there is a coctail of endorphins and other chemicals that counteract pain flowing through their bloodstream during pregnancy and childbirth.

Now, frankly, Sisters don't really need enhancements to be on par with the Space Marines, next to them they are the best equipped and trained force in the Imperium, on an individual level (Tech Guard will have better armour and likely bionics but won't each have their own bolter and suit of power armour, etc.). Plus they have the various faith based powers that Space Marines don't have.

As for Sisters running with the OX, remember that Sisters can become part of an Inquisitorial retinue, with all that implies, so having an Inquisitorial Throne Agent who is/was a Sister of Battle running around with the Marines is just fine.

Just wanted to throw out an apology to H.B.M.C. He really didn't need to be on an inappropriate blunt end of me being a crotchety bar-steward when I work up in the wee hours of mourning with a crick in my neck because I feel asleep on the couch. I'll stand by the idea that I may have read a little bit about the 40k universe, but I don't think anyone needs to see that kind of response. If only FFG would allow people to edit for a bit longer... Anyway, my bad.

ak-73 said >>>

Errr... you are aware that modern combat is about more than just pulling the trigger of a gun? I've had a female US solider tell me about that once at least (pulling a wounded comrade out of the line of fire? hauling stuff? breaking down barriers?).

I have never been a soldier, nor in modern combat, so I would imagine that my knowledge of either is going to be fairly limited and informed form unreliable sources. I think that it is where many of the fans come from and while in every barracks the world over you've probably got some 40k nerd laughing their ass off.

With that said, I think that the issue comes in part with the interpretation of power armour. I was merely pointing out that as soon as you got beyond the "Marine are awesomez" argument which means that they've got to be the "best of the best" period, that the functional difference between Marines and Sisters in the field would be more limited than the fan bois might initially argue. And while I've seen G.I. Jane as well, remember that depending on what yard-stick your measuring it by, Sister PA augments her strength as well. Not by a huge amount because of the "Marinez are awesomez" argument, but it is augmented.

Anyway, once again I was merely trying to point out that Sisters don't really need to be made more awesome. Perhaps Marines need to be made less "awesomez."

Kage

Kage2020 said:

If you make Marines less awesome, how is Mankind going to survive any longer? ;-)

Alex