Hello;

The question is about card: Wish for strenght: Cities U13.

If the summoned creature goes insane from struggle or other action - can the card be returned to the owner hand? If so when?

Veross said:

The character created by Wish For Strength is still the same character while being insane. The effect that made the character is still "running on the background", since it's already been triggered. So, even though the character is blanked, the initial effect will ask you to either drain the domain to return it to your hand, or sacrifice it. Insanity won't stop this effect. If the character dies though, it's out of reach of the effect.

So, to answer the question: It will return to your hand or be sacrifced at the end of the phase.

Marius said:

Hi;

I am not so sure about it.

If it is as you say if the character dies, the effect (as you say) is still in the background so I could be able to return the creature even from discard! The whole Action takes place...

On the other hand if it is insane the text is balnked and the text is returned on the next Ready Phase, but I cannot take the card back on next refresh phase as card says that it can be taken to hand at the END OF THIS phase..

Strange...

Veross said:

Ok, it's kinda complicated.

-- Agency --
Wish for Strength
-----------------
Type : Event
Cost : X
Subtype : Encounter. Ritual.
Game Text: Action: put Wish for Strength into play as a Summoned character with X skill and CC icons. Then, at the end of the phase, either drain a domain to return Wish for Strength to its owner's hand or sacrifice it.
Collector's Info: FC U13

Once the action is triggered, everything from "Action:" to "...sacrifice it" will happen, as long as the character is in play. It's all part of the same action. Letting it go insane doesn't stop the action.

"Insane" is a game state just like "ready" and "exhausted" - So you could ask "would the character still be returned if it is exhausted?" and the answer would be the same. But, instead of turning the card 90 degrees to show it's exhausted, you put it upside down to detone it's "insane" - it still is the same character, but it is treated as if it had a printed cost and skill of 0, and no textbox.

A card in the discard pile doesn't excist any more, for what the "action:" is concerned though. The action is still there, but doesn't "find" the character, because once the character hits the discard pile, it loses "card memory." - And if a card doesn't mention a zone, the default zone is "in play" and the action can only effect a card in the relevant zone.

If we would have the following card:

Hypothetical Guy
---------------
Type: Character
Cost: 3
Subtype: Independant
Game Text: Forced Response: At end of the phase, return Hypothetical Guy to your hand

...and it would go insane, it would stay in play. Why? Because the "return to your hand" isn't part of an action that has already been triggered. And if the textbox is blanked, it's not possible to trigger the effect. The wishes have an action that creates them, though, and while creating them "sets up" the rest of the effect to 'unmake' them.

Hi;

Your explanation seems to be correct, what bothers me is the text in FAQ2.0:

If a non-character card goes insane, it is treated
as a character while it remains insane. Once
restored, by any means, that card immediately
returns to its printed card type, and this does not
count as restoring a character. If the restored card
is an event card, it is immediately discarded.

So the card is restored at your next refresh phase and shoudl be discarded, as action allows you to take the card back to your hand during the same phase only..?

PS: is FAQ2.0 latest one?

Veross said:

This FAQ entry refers to another situation. This applies when there is no Action setting up a return/sacrifice event at end of phase. On the wish and most other "encounter" cards, the sacrifice is built into the effect that creates them. The FAQ mentions a situation where the event card doesn't have an action that sets up a sacrifice. In practice, that doesn't happen, as all encounters give a duration on the moment of creation. But should there be an event that becomes a character indefinately, and it goes insane - or the set up trigger is somehow removed, then the event or support card will remain a character while insane, until it is restored, after which it referts to it's normal card type.

Hi, sorry to go a bit off-topic here but I would like to inquire about one other thing that is debated on another forum wihout any conclusion (at least not one agreeable to both sides of the debate) and is about inanity too.

The whole quarrel started when people couldn't decide how to treat Charles Dexter Ward card, some have stated that he doesn't exhaust while commiting to the story and others are against it.

Basically it boils down to:

When a character goes insane it is automatically exhausted (flipped face-down and exhausted), does not ready during the refresh phase etc.

vs

Insane character can be either ready or exhausted, just like any other character and any exhausted insane characters are readied during the refresh phase.

Could someone here please enlighten us as to which version is correct?

By my own reading of the card, Charles never refreshes as he is permanently insane.

Insane characters do ready and exhaust as normal. Going insane however, and restoring do cause characters to exhaust though. CDW doesn't restore though as there is no difference between a "sane" and "insane" version. So, restoring CDW will fail, and the exhausting due to restore won't happen as restore has failed.

I see two different points of view? Insane characters can be exhaust or not?

Can I use Low Blow or Mentor to Vaughn, to chose and exhaust insane character?

Can I exhaust insane characters, to use Lake of Glaaki action?

MN R-126 Lake of Glaaki (Support, Shub-Niggurath, cost 3) Action: exhaust and exhaust X characters to choose and wound a character with skill X or lower committed to a story.

Zaurak said:

When a character goes insane, or restores, he will be exhausted. Nothing in the Insanity rules state you can't ready an insane character, even during your refresh phase. There is nothing in the rules preventing you from using your insane characters for the purposes of Lake of Glaaki.

Thanks for the answer.

English is not my native language, so my questions is hmmm... simple and I don't understand Your answer about CDW .

If I commit CDW to a story card is he exhaust or not?

Zaurak said:

Don't worry, English isn't my native language either (Yay imperialism!)

Okay, let's put it this way:

Being exhausted, and being insane are independant states. So, a character can be insane, exhausted or both. Putting the card upside down is just to indicate it is insane. You can also put an Insanity Token on it, if you so please - Although the rules strongly suggest putting it upside down.

So, Insane characters ready as normal; Although Restoring a character causes it to exhaust and not ready that phase. Also, going insane causes it to exhaust (although, I think this part is not explicitly mentioned in the Core Rules)

Charles Dexter Ward is a special case.

-- Hastur --
•Charles Dexter Ward
--------------------
Type : Character
Cost : 3
Skill : 3
Icons : CA
Subtype : Servitor.
Game Text: Charles Dexter Ward is Insane. Charles Dexter Ward retains all its properties and can commit while being Insane. Whenever Charles Dexter Ward would go Insane, choose another character, if able. That character goes Insane instead. Charles Dexter Ward can be chosen as the target of an effect that would cause him to go Insane, including a lost Terror struggle at a story to which he is committed.

Yes, he has an insanely long textbox, as per the FAQ. There where a lot of rules worries, but nothing is as cool as a character that is permanently insane.

CDW is a character that counts towards being an insane character, can't be driven insane (because he already is insane) but has special text that prevents him from losing his characteristics when being insane.

Don't worry too much about CDW. His actual templating should be: "CDW counts as an insane character." - However, the text "Charles Dexter Ward is insane" sounds much cooler, doesn't it? Never mind that he isn't able to go insane, but still has a replacement effect for it, because that would make his text even longer. Just go by the spirit of the cards, not the words (and even that is a weird advice from your rules lawyer.)

The answer to your question is: Yes, he exhausts to commit to a story. Unless he goes to the story by boat:

-- Agency --
•The Barque Miskatonic, Sturdy Transport
----------------------------------------
Type : Support
Cost : 2
Subtype : Vehicle.
Game Text: Action: Exhaust The Barque Miskatonic to choose a character. Until the end of the phase, that character does not exhaust to commit to stories.
Flavor text:
Illustrator: Trevor Cook
Collector's Info: AMM F2

...but why you would go to that effort...

Thank's a lot

Marius said:

My issue here is that when character goes insane IT DOES NOT exchaust. It exhaust when restored. Unless someone can fing otherwise in Rules or FAQ.?

Veross said:

I can't find anything from the rules that would state that a character is exhausted when it goes insane. And I don't remember ever hearing that before. It would be quite understandable if that was the case, but since it isn't in the rules, I suppose that's not what happens.

Veross said:

I'll have to take a look at some Arkham rules to answer that. I think Arkham Rules specifically mentioned it; For instance Twilight was mentioned in Arkham rules as well, but dropped later.