This is what I'm thinking about right now. Doesn't look like I'm going to get any games in today, but I figured I may as well post where I'm starting out.

3x Defender of the Hold
1x Mountain Legion
3x Slayers of Karak Kadrin
3x Dwarf Cannon Crew
3x Zealot Hunter
3x Mountain Brigade
3x Longbeards
1x King Kazador
-- 20 Units

3x Innovation
3x Stand Your Ground
1x Lure Them Out
2x Demolition!
1x Blessing of Valaya
1x Judgement of Verena
3x Master Rune of Spite
-- 14 Tactics

3x Warpstone Excavation
3x Contested Village
2x Great Book of Grudges
3x Mining Tunnels
3x Ancestral Tomb
2x Treasure Vaults
-- 16 Supports

The Tomb/Vaults/King plan is obviously experimental and may well not work out. Contested Stronghold may be better than Treasure Vaults for that plan - we'll see.

I've been running this style of deck for a while now so I actually (for once) feel comfortable discussing it from a valuation standpoint. However, I'd like to know what type of environment this deck would be used for? (Tournaments, friendly play, niche deck design, etc...?)

For a tournament, there are a few cards in here that (from my heavy usage of this kind of deck) don't work all that great (imho, of course). The Zealot Hunters are too much of a limitation against pure decks so I rarely run 3 of them (either 1 or 2). Also it's heavily neutering the deck to not include both Zhufbar Engineers and the Dwarf Rangers. Of course Slayers of Kadrak Kazin are a must and the key to everything, practically - there are some nifty tricks you can pull with them that many W:I players may not be aware of and they're also the reason that you really don't need a Grudge Thrower at all for Dwarves.

I've found 4-cost Supports to be pretty useless, most of the time - that includes Treasure Vaults or Contested Strongholds. If they stay alive, they're excellent (of course) but you either don't have time to get them into play without falling behind in the Rush environment of current tournaments OR they don't stay alive long enough to pay off.

Cannon Crew are fantastic but for them to be a bit more useful, you may want even more Supports. The Book of Grudges is cool, no doubt about it, but again, not enough bang for the buck, in my experience with this deck - I'm just about ready to deep-six these from my current build. Blessing of Valaya is okay but I don't think it's useful enough to waste a slot on it. I like the heavy table-wide destruction cards but I'd cut back one of the Runes of Spite (just my preference to not need 4x of unit destruction cards). Stand Your Ground is awesome and I heartily agree with having 3x of them - especially in light of the nasty trick to get high-cost units into play quickly and cheaply with them.

Not sure about using King Khazador but you could also tap into the trick with SYG mentioned above so I suppose he can make a good Development fodder early on if need be. Ancestral Tombs is another one that I'm not sure about and I'd need more time testing with them in my build to see what I think about their usefulness. Mining Tunnels are a must (as you've claimed from the start and rightfully so).

I've found that sprinkling either Blessings of Isha or Dragon Mage Awakening along with the Shadow Hunters Unit can go a long way towards helping this deck handle Orcs or Skaven/DE builds - they're effectively neutralizers for Sniktch, also.

These are my initial thoughts. DDM has challenged me to be more involved in this kind of thing and I think I'm ready to start taking on the challenge - as long as people are civil, reasonable, and friendly about the discussions, I'll keep getting more involved as I do LOVE this game dearly. I also would like to say that I really wish you were coming to GenCon - it'd be excellent to meet you and share startegy thoughts. If I had the funds I'd come to PAX to play with you guys but alas, it's only one Con a year for me and I'm lucky to get to attend GenCon all things considered with our current situation (with my son, Noah).

I'm always aiming for tournament-worthy decks. Except for High Elves, who don't have a single tournament-level deck with actual units in it. Chaos is nearly in the same boat right now IMHO.

Treasure Vaults cost 3, not 4. But yeah, they probably won't work out. My thought is that the Tombs will let them go online on turn 3, so we shall see.

Dwarf Rangers were pretty much the last thing to get cut. They're just a bit slow. They are on my shortlist of things to go back in though. I don't like Zhufbar Engineers - I've tried them a whole bunch of times and paying 3 for a single hammer and an ability that often doesn't do anything doesn't cut it for me. Bear in mind that the group I play in likes supports a lot more than seems average on the boards. I agree that you don't need Grudge Throwers.

I think you probably need some number of Book of Grudges here. After cutting Troll Slayers you are really light on actual offense and providing more targets for DCC is a large bonus.

Deathmaster and the rest of his little squeaky friends are still a huge threat and I don't see cutting Zealot Hunters in the foreseeable future. This deck is going to develop a whole lot so having them in the mirror match etc. doesn't really worry me.

I've played Shadow Hunters quite a bit in a just-for-fun HE deck and they don't seem as good as they do on paper even before I start worrying about loyalty. The fact that your opponent gets to pick where the damage goes tends to mean that it's Clan Moulder's Elite, Squig Herders, Boar Boyz or Ugrok that gets pinged against Orc rush. As a not-so-nice bonus, they are more or less unplayable against Empire since they often have Warrior Priests - and they provide a target for opposing Zealot Hunters.

Isha's Blessing is a pretty marginal effect. Even at 0 in HE it's just ok. I don't see that making the cut. In HE it always felt like using a band-aid 3 sizes too small.

Pretty solid list, Clamatius.

@Wytefang: Pretty much what Clamatius said: You REALLY need the Zealot Hunters if you want a shot in hell at beating Deathmaster. It's the most annoying thing in the world and I'll risk having a dead card against solo faction decks. Worst case scenario, it's a development late in the game. Basically, if you can't keep Deathmaster (and even Greyseer) under control, you'll simply get pummeled by Skaven. I've even used Zealot to kill Clan Moulder's Elites before. Point is, it's so good against Skaven and multi faction Destruction decks that the 3 slots are well worth it.

Regarding the Tomb + Vaults combo, I don't think it's particuarly needed. I think it's real good when it gets online, but I've never really had a shortage of resources with the Dwarf deck without the cute combos. This is just theorycraft, mind you, as I haven't personally played with the Tomb and Vaults together, but it seems a bit overkill. I actually still play a few Keystone Forges and they've been pretty good for me so I'd personally like to stick with those.

Dropping the Troll Slayers is something that I did a while ago anyway. I feel The Longbeards are just better at what the Troll Slayers are supposed to be doing and for a lot less effort. As I said before, I play the Runesmith Apprentice so I don't actually play Verena (even after talking it up in my blog). I play 2 Master Rune of Spites instead and have a way to try and find it when i need it. If I recall, I also play 2 Blessing and Valaya and 2 Fog Runes. Everything else seems pretty standard.

Good list!

- SF

Hmm, I hadn't noticed that Blessing of Valaya is a Rune before, but I guess that makes sense (since all the Dwarf magic is via runes in the backstory, IIRC). I'm not sold on the Apprentice - it seems like you'd have to have an awful lot of Runes to have him not whiff all the time. I get burned by the cannon crew what seems like a lot even with ~15 supports. What's the math there to break, say, 50/50? How many runes do you need?

Anyway, it's possible that alliances or Keystone Forge will be better than the Vaults / Tomb plan, partly because Dwarf Cannon Crew can't fetch the Vaults. Tomb does allow for some sick first turns for sure though - e.g. Defender of the Hold, Tomb, Innovation, Dwarf Cannon Crew into Mining Tunnels, develop (for 4 hammers and 3 devs on turn 1).

Hell yeah, finally a discussion thread about a decktype that I played the most in the last 3 months. My momentary build looks something like that:

53 cards

3 Innovation
2 Grudge Thrower
3 Mountain Legion
3 Order in Chaos
3 Stand Your Ground
3 Bottomless Mine
2 Demolition!
3 Dwarf Cannon Crew
3 Great Book of Grudges
2 Grudgebearer
2 Master Rune of Valaya
3 Mining Tunnels
3 Mountain Barracks
3 Slayers of Karak Kadrin
3 Bodyguard of Belegar
3 Dwarf Ranger
2 Master Rune of Spite
3 Zhufbar Engineers
2 Mountain Brigade
2 King Kazador

I know that it's not 100% competive against orc/darkelf/skaven or mybe bolt thrower but I in my playgroup these tournament decks aren't played often. Bottomless Mine is a great addition and getting 2 units in one zone is not a problem thanks to cannon crews or mountain legions. One thing I have noticed in the latest deck builting threads is that Order in Chaos is not incuded but why is that? I really like it because in a lot of turns I'm holding 1 or 2 resources back for demolition, valaya or Stand Your Ground and it helps getting cheap units back to hand instead of "wasting" a Stand your Ground. Order In Chaos + Mining Tunnels allow some draw tricks with Grudge Thrower which is one reason I take the Thrower with me because it proved to be helpful to just sacrifice all of your own units besides Dwarf Rangers to get a lot of direct damage in the opponents capital right where you need it. In our playgroup we see it as a very strong card or what are the main reasons to not include it in order decks?

In a previous version I had 2 Verena and 3 Long Winter in it and it was good playable because of cannon crews + Bottomless Mine which gave me a lot of resources in comparison to earlier builds where the deck could easily run with 5-6 resources. Long Winter also helped with development decisions but maybe thats one general problem for me what developments I play in the early turns especially when I don't have tunnels on board. King Kazador is mainly development food and can get on board with the old Stand Your Ground/Demolition combo but since Bottomless Mine I can also play him in the midgame from hand.

Master Rune of Spite is as great as expected but since I played my last matches against a Hellblaster/Surprise Assault deck it was not soo great because my opponent didn't have that much units on board and peasant milita with volley gun doesn't give a crap thanks to "+X damage" and not power :-/

I also cut out Zealot Hunters for Zuffbar Engineers again because of the dwarf unit synergy but I have to say that I didn't fave a lot of Snitch in previous time. But Master Rune of Spite can basically do the same I already cut out the loved Lure Them Out. Spider Riders now have to be job for the Rangers. I think Grudge Bearer are going out beside their great synergy with Rangers mainly because they don't survive the Spite Rune but 2 of them in battlefield at the right time can be a gamewinner.

Clamatius said:

Couple of thoughts in reply...I have zero clue what the term "mirror match" means - I'll assume it means if you face your own type and relative build of deck? Also, "fog", please remind me what the hell that means again? LOL

All that aside, the Blessing of Isha and Dragonmage Awakening Support cards can do a very nice number on Deathmaster and synergize nicely with DCC which can play them straight away, without having to worry about loyalty costs (ya gotta love the DCC). So they're equally affective in my experience - or at the very least, an alternative path to handling him. I do like Zealots, mind you, I just don't like how they can punish you against either pure decks OR for those times when none of your opponent's units are different from their capital board. That being said, it does seem more directly effective to just kill off Deathmaster straight away rather than neutering him, I suppose. BUT there is a trade-off with killing a Unit, too - that you'll potentially see it again later in the game, whereas a Blessing of Isha leaves ol' Sniktchy stuck on the board and useless other than for resource/card generation (depending on where you put him).

I do agree that the Shadow Hunters probably don't make the cut - they ARE terribly nasty against Orc decks in the early-to-mid game but not the greatest after that.

ShubFan27 said:

I'm confused as to what benefit Runesmith gives you over Verena (or put another way, how are you utilizing Runesmith in your deck)? Just wondering as I'm unable to currently intuit what would make it terribly useful other than as a damage pumping machine for a single Unit. Not sure what a "Fog Rune" is, you'll have to explain that one to me, I'm afraid. One of those over-relied upon Magic terms, I'll guess... D'oh!

"Except for High Elves, who don't have a single tournament-level deck with actual units in it. " so sad but so true

You dont like Mountain Barracks in your Master Rune of Spite deck? They seem a better target for the Cannon Crew in this deck than the Tomb to me.

I find Mountain Barracks to be ok - the fact that it works outside the kingdom is nice - but the possibility of opening hands with Tomb and Innovation has me salivating. The Barracks are definitely on the edge of the bench waiting to be tried. You're right that it has a good synergy with Spite.

Wytefang: you'll have to forgive my terminology. Many years of thinking in Magic take their toll.

Fog = all damage prevented for the turn (Master Rune of Valaya, Gifts of Aenerion). I wish there was a succinct terminology equivalent in Warhammer but there doesn't seem to be since Valaya and Aenerion show up everywhere for Dwarf and HE.

Mirror match = playing against the same deck

Note that Shub is talking about Runesmith Apprentice, not Runesmith. The Apprentice is the one that searches for Runes in the top 5 cards. The actual Runesmith pumps up power - and I don't think that guy is playable without a serious Contested Stronghold type setup.

Got it, thanks Clamatius.

Ok, did some testing last night with the following list:

Smite Dwarves:

3x Defender of the Hold
3x Dwarven Cannon Crew
3x Runesmith Apprentice
3x Slayers of Karak Kadrin
3x Zealot Hunter
3x Mountain Brigade
3x Longbeards

2x Master Rune of Spite
1x Blessing of Valaya
2x Master Rune of Valaya
3x Innovation
3x Stand Your Ground
1x Lure Them Out
2x Demolition

1x Master Rune of Dismay
3x Warpstone Excavation
3x Contested Village
3x Mining Tunnels
2x Keystone Forge
3x Great Book of Grudges

Ok, some thoughts on the deck. Yes, I'm critiquing my own deck.

1. 3 Book of Grudges is too many. Without Grudge Thrower, you get stuck a lot with a Book on a Cannon Crew and can't get rid of it. While this is not necessarily a bad thing (not at all) it makes all your extra Books dead cards for the majority of the game. Cutting down to 2 seems like the logical play and something that Clamatius has already done.

2. Runesmith Apprentice misses a lot. While I already knew this, I assumed the times you hit your Master Rune of Spite outweighed the number of times you would whiff. Well, it doesn't. I think the first few games I played with the deck I got really lucky with the Apprentice and just hit a lot. I actually really like Master Rune of Dismay as it makes other Order decks cringe a little bit and is also quite good vs Skaven decks who don't develop their Kingdom much. I know I was able to keep my opponent from playing Deathmaster a few different times and made him work around the Rune. That said, I don't think you can play the 1-of if you cut the Runesmith Apprentice.

3. 3 Zealot Hunters might be too many. I never thought I'd say that as I always assumed you need 3 of this guy to combat the Destruction decks but Master Rune of Spite takes care of that pretty well on its own. It's pretty nifty that Spite magically kills Deathmaster so you don't rely on that as much. To be completely honest, I used Zealot Hunter to kill Clan Moulder's Elites more than anything else. I could easily see cutting this down to 2 or even as a 1-of Miser card. Prolly two, though, as Clan Moulder's Elites are still a problem if you don't have Slayers out.

The deck went 7-3 against Orc/Skaven which was definitely the results I needed to see. Spite was a blowout every time and if you're opponent doesn't play around he isn't going to win. My playtest partner starting playing around the card a little bit and it was a little harder for me to win, but inevitability eventually won out and I won the long game battles. Longbeards are REALLY good in the deck, not only because they're hard to kill, but because they attack for 3 a lot earlier than Troll Slayers typically could. Really, I think playing a singleton Troll Slayer over the 3rd Zealot Hunter is a pretty reasonable play.

Just some thoughts.

- SF

I think I'd cut Blessing of Valaya before cutting any Zealot Hunters. I also LOVE Lure Them Out. It will catch a Deathmaster every once in a while, and it stomps all over Spider Riders. I run this card in triplicate.

I also like keeping Keystone Forge in the deck to make sure DCC hits way more time than he misses. But I'd still be running Tomb. Clamatius is right, the potential first turn for Dwarves with this card is reason enough. And the deck already had a few sick openers before the Enemy Cycle.

Thanks for so much commentary on this deck type, and especially to shub/clamat for spearheading it.

I am a huge fan of the Spite Rune as Order's 'best' answer for Skaven (and rush in general actually), seeing as how it otherwise has few and far between 'good' ways of dealing with Death/Seer which is a huge competitive gripe...

- dut

Sadly, there are still a bunch of annoying things that don't die to Rune of Spite. Things that spring to mind off the top of my head are Vile Sorceress, Wilhelm, all the scouts except Shades and Dwarf Rangers.

As for the Book of Grudges getting "stuck" on a DCC, bear in mind that in the latest rulings you are allowed to fail to find things even if there was a target for them. If you are in the midgame, if all you find is a Book then I can see some situations where you wouldn't want to pull the Book out. I don't think you want to run 3 (a) because they're unique and (b) because the deck is a little light on units and topdecking attachments when you need a guy really sucks.

Blessing of Valaya is kinda weird when you're figuring out card valuation. A lot of the time it's totally dead and doesn't do anything. But when it works it often wins you the game.

I like Lure Them Out, mostly because it's really cheap, but often the things that are annoying me are not in the battlefield (hi Greyseer!). I don't see myself running 3 although 2 is possible.

As an aside, I think my list may have the possible most-hammers-on-turn-1 draw of any deck I've made. Not that that is particularly significant, but it would be funny.

Tomb -> Develop -> Innovation -> Treasure Vaults -> Innovation -> Treasure Vaults -> Warpstone to Quest for a grand total of +10 hammers on turn 2. That's on the play, of course.

After tweaking your decklist (without any testing of either) I did only find room for two Lures. I'm picking up the latest BP and will be able to get some games in tonight to test. I'm looking forward to it!

3 Innovation
3 Warpstone Excavation
3 Contested Village
3 Defender of the Hold
2 Lure Them Out
3 Stand Your Ground
3 Ancestral Tomb
2 Demolition!
3 Dwarf Cannon Crew
2 Great Book of Grudges
2 Keystone Forge
3 Mining Tunnels
3 Slayers of Karak Kadrin
3 Master Rune of Spite
3 Troll Slayers
3 Zealot Hunter
3 Longbeards
3 Mountain Brigade

It plays a relatively high number of Tactics and Supports, so I ended up running a set of Troll Slayers in addition to the superior Longbeards. I just felt I needed more finishers. Can't wait to test it out.

Personally, I feel a full set of Troll Slayers AND Longbeards is a bit too much. Maybe that's just personal preference, but I don't like to have that many units that "only" attack. I can see playing 1-2 Troll Slayers basically as Longbeards number four and five, but the fact that more often than not they're going to die to your own Master Rune of Spite is a little disheartening. I understand that you can plan around that, but that seems like an unnecessary evil.

I still think that Ancestral Tomb is a little overkill, but I'm willing to test it out this weekend.

- SF

As a Skaven player I really hate this whole thread. I am just going to sleeve up bolt thrower, screw you guys.

(this deck is really good).

Alright, after playing an hour or so, the results are in. Notes, in no particular order.

I like Ancestral Tomb. I prefer it over Keystone Forge even with the extra loyalty. Mining Tunnels is as absurdly good as ever.

So far the Treasure Vaults have been decent but I don't want 3 of them. You have to watch out for the temptation to always try to get the value boost out of them by playing to kingdom whereas you may be better off with a plain hammer in quest.

Master Rune of Spite is pure win. Literally. Often effectively reads "ALL YOUR GUYS DIE BUT MINE DON'T" which seems good. I like having 3 just so I can draw into them more, although when I get multiples I'm usually developing them.

I may cut 1 more book of grudges. Often felt that I didn't want to overexpose myself to card disadvantage by playing it. Maybe replace with 1 Keystone Forge or even Mountain Barracks.

Defenders of the Hold are teetering on the brink of being cut. They die to Spite and generally don't get a lot of work done, although they do make nice sandbags against Lobber Crews.

Longbeards are fat.

Never saw Kazador the whole time. I think he is holed up in Krispy Kreme putting away a couple of dozen.

I think I need to play more before I start making changes.

*I* think we need to resurrect Thrower to keep this list honest.

This is a deck built to bury Skaven in a hole somewhere in the desert. And it achives that with vigor. Holy terrible matchup for the rats. Every bit as bad as I thought it would be 2 posts ago before we had tested it!

For once I feel good that I was already keen on this deck previously and knew it could handle Orc/Skaven Or Skaven/X.... Sweet to hear how well it did for Shub, though.

ddm5182 said:

With Dwarves ability to get so much from developing the Kingdom, maybe Reap Whats Sown could be really good. You spent your whole hand playing out dudes and supports? Innovate, Reap, Innovate and dump your new hand on the table to pull out the win within a couple turns. Dwarves almost seem good enough to take the best of the Bolt Thrower deck and just pack it into a mono-faction aggro-control monster.

The references to Bolt Thrower are actually kinda funny because I was actually thinking of adding a Bolt Thrower to the deck before I realized it wasn't really needed. I even debated playing the actual BT deck from a Dwarf board because of all the ridiculous Dwarf control cards the last few BPs. Master Rune of Spite is arguably better than Flames of the Phoenix (at least in a vacuum) and the support cards Dwarves have to offer are better off on a Dwarf board imo. That would also open up the possibility of playing with Dwarven Cannon Crew in the deck but even that might not be necessary.

Anyway, back on subject; I do like Ancestral Tomb a little more than I thought I would but I don't get the Tomb into Innovation start very often at all. I was actually using Tomb a good bit to turn on Troll Slayers in the Battlefield so at least it has its uses at any point in the game. It should also be noted that +2 HP to any zone is not a bad thing at all. I absolutely don't like 3 Troll Slayers in the deck though. I changed my list to include 2 Slayers and have been happy with that. The fact that they can die to a Master Rune of Spite is REALLY a turn off though.

Regarding Defenders of the Hold: I definitely don't like them, but them seem pretty necessary. They provide a much needed early loyalty as well as being fodder for Lobber Crews that are SURELY going to get played in droves at the Championships.

- SF