Just read through the rules for Battle for Westeros. Though I enjoy Battlelore, I must say there are some aspects of the game that doesn't thrill me. These things seem to be addressed in Battle for Westeros. All I could think of while I was reading the rules was why couldn't FF publish an update/expansion Battlelore that incorporated all those changes they have made. By putting it into an expansion, those that like Battlelore just as it is, could continue as is, but those of us that look at Battle for Westeros and say why couldn't that have been Battlelore could get the changes this would bring.

My fear is that Battlelore is going to die a quiet death.

ZombiEd said:

...and that is the reason why I won't start buying Battles of Westeros products. If every BL player just quit and buy BoW then surely BL will die. I don't know if I can make a difference but I will surely write about my opinion here.

I won't go to the Battles of Westeros camp, ever, BL death or not. It feels like I'm tricked into buying whatever the hell FFG wants to continue selling {in this case BoW over BL}.

I'm in the no buy into Westeroes as well, partly due to the fact I want BL supported partly because I don't want to have to read 5 + books to get a concept of the setting of the world.

I'll keep churning out my homebrew stuff, keep on playing and support BL but meh to BoW, it is too far removed from BL to even be given the title of a BL game (come on FFg where's the lore, the hints in the title, yes I know you can play BL without lore but the rules are right there in the base game to use or not.

The other big trick they've missed is pumping out an rpg on the back of it, give all of Mr Borg's race ideas an entry, then release the armies a virtuous circle but hey what do I know...

Chris

I'm not into BoW either. Battlelore is still my favorite game and probably will be for some time to come. If ever it does die, being the completist that I am, I will simply breath a sigh of relief knowing that I have every expansion up to date; more than enough for me to be able to play for years to come.

BoW = Better-Off Without

Would you buy an expansion that implemented some of the concepts introduced in BOW? For example the d8s, engagement tokens and Command tokens.

I've only really read the posts rather than all the rules so don't know all the twists and turns these rules bring about.

Using a d8 instead of a d6 (assuming 3 green, 2 blue, 1 each of red, flag and lore) will mean that

Lore is rolled less often so unless the rules include an auto generation equal to lore level or some such then all the Lore cards would need re-costing.
Flags will like wise come up less often making formations less important
All previously published scenario's become less balanced as the the time taken to kill blue and red units will be longer than green ones, correspondingly all future adventures will either need doing twice (once per rules) or pitched mid way between the two rules.

If the new base set was converted and they released an at cost expansion I would probably look at it but I just don't see the rules are needed in BL as it is meant to be a light wargame

Chris

ZombiEd said:

Not as long as Frag is around ........ I have both Games as I'm a big Westros fan,but BoW with its Commander Rules is not something you can easily tie into another Fantasy setting.BL can convert easily into any Fantasy World you want & we run campaigns in setting from Hyboria to Hell.I complained a lot about BL lack of a campaign setting & detailed background but I came to terms with that & use the Game with whatever background that interests us.

FFG plans for BL remain to be seen & how it's going to reissue the base game at a reasonable price point may have more effect on BL future that the success of BoW.

OD

ZombiEd said:

Count me in for an expansion with advanced rules for BL. I think this is what they should have done to begin with instead of releasing this BoW: "A BattleLore Game" crap.

They have some neat ideas and instead of introducing them in the original game as an expansion, they released a new game that is incompatible with the original. Way to go FFG, NOT!

Since you mentioned BoW concepts let me tell you what concepts I really want to see in BattleLore or not:

1} No d8s. At first it may look like a nice idea but it actually sucks if you think about it. Morale has a 1/8 chance instead of 1/6 changing some tactics of the game and making the whole retreat mechanic less frequent.

Different hit ratios mean that Red units {which already were powerful in BL} become even more powerful and Green units {which already were a bit weak in BL} become even weaker.

Also, I can see Archers shooting at other Green units because they'll die easily which is a bit unrealistic as archer in that periods shot at more juicy targets and not on simple peasants which is what the green units represent.

2} Objective-based scenarios. Here is a change I'd like to see in BL. It's getting tedious to play each and every battle with the usual "first to X kills, wins" victory condition. They rectified that somewhat on Horrific Horde's scenarios which is a good thing. Maybe they are paying attention to what we write here after all...

3} GOD FORBID no engagement tokens! This mechanic is good in theory but it's so fiddly in reality. I consider it an epic fail! {speaking the gamer's language now! }

Put token, remove token, put down token, remove token. No!

4} Parting blows: nice idea but it creates static gameplay and does not promote tactics. So no.

5} Morale victory condition: Now we are talking. The single greatest idea that I envy from BoW. This is a very nice idea that creates tension and it feels realistic too. Medieval battles were decided by army morale and not by kills.

6} Leaders. I don't care that BattleLore has no Leaders. But I have a proposal to make. I'd like more Hand management options for the players. An ability to discard cards and draw new ones. This will simulate that you have better Leaders very well. Even if they do add Leaders in BL with an expansion I don't have a problem. They are a welcome addition.

7} Customized command decks. Really neat idea but it will mess with the Sections/common player deck balance. I believe that it can be done though.

BattleLore could have been one of the best games ever but the greedy expansion policy by Days of Wonder and unfortunately the BoW crap from FFG, managed to keep it in mediocrity and it still has many fans. Imagine the potential that it has!

When FFG announced that they took over BattleLore I was absolutely thrilled. I know what a powerful hype machine FFG has and I knew that the game will get to new heights of gameplay. I can't tell you how badly I felt when they announced Battles of Westeros. I didn't even know that it was incompatible back then! I just knew that adding a new universe to the game meant that FFG was not going to continue with the original BattleLore. Such a dissapointment that it cannot be described in words.

I really hope that BoW doesn't sell that well so that they won't consider killing BL if they haven't done already. And this eerie silence about this matter is extremely annoying too I must say. FFG is my favorite boardgame company but with their BattleLore vs BoW sheananigans they are losing favor with me faster than you can say "A Core Game"

Old Dwarf said:

:]

I also agree that BL future has more to do with BL sellings (or something surrounding it) than with BoW. I do understand (and I said that here a while ago) that the way BoW was released is very bad business: announcing a new game and attaching this announcement with less attention to an older but really good game (and with a great fanbase) seems like bad business to me.

but I don't know much, since I'm playing BL completely out of the map: here in Brazil there are few people who buy these types of games, so I cannot know how are things where the selling matters.

what I do know or suspect: I've been ordering everything that I can afford of BL, because I simply love the game. I'm really glad that there are places like CoolStuffInc and specially Noble Knight, which sells the good stuff at good prices, and keeps selling out-of-print stuff. I'm really glad I've ordered the Scottish expansion, even if I expect FFG will release a dwarf expansion in the same way they did with the goblins.

I will buy BoW eventually. that's because I really love the scenario. I don't want BL to compete with BoW, and I don't want them to be compatible. BoW is oriented to a low-fantasy, hard scenario, much more like reality. we can argue about the practicality of the rules, focusing on reality, and comparing the two games, but what I can tell before we start pointing every aspect (something that I suppose many of you can do better than I) is that BoW rules try to bring something more realistic, and it is more attached to a given, well constructed scenario. I do like this ideas.

seemingly, what I love about BL is that it is a light fantasy game. it has a lot of expansions and the rules tend to get more complicated, which is fine, even great to me, but, at large, it does has a light feel. I just love to get the grip of the rules and forget about worring over details. I like BL as it is, even if some expansion of the rules, such as FragMaster is suggesting, would also be fine.

I can live happy in a world in which both games exist, without they trying or having to adapt to each other. I can even manage the "BL Game" in BoW's title. what I cannot manage is FFG giving up such a wonderful game as BL is. and I don't understand why this competition crap started in the first place.

cheers,

Pedro

PS: I'm discussing using BL to play some RPG battles that we went through in older campaings, or even use it as the combat system for larger battles in current campaings. I find it to be a great idea, cause we would have to adapt so very little. I do think BoW could be used in other scenarios than Martin's, but it would need to be some other low-fantasy scenario, and I expect a lot more would be needed to adapt it properly. and Song of Ice and Fire does has a great RPG from GreenRonin.

FragMaster said:

I completely agree with this quote. I agree with the things you would like to see. The things you mention as bad ideas - I also fully agree with. The beauty of Battlelore is in part it's simplicity. Complicating things with more tokens, parting blows, and D8s would all mess with a system that is already perfectly functionable.

I hope Battlelore achieves the success it is capable of. It's a great game, and there is plenty of room for fun expansions. I would hate to see FFG add more so called 'chrome' to the game, or if they do, not cause the bloat that is associated with that.

I think we will see more from FFG, I just hope they keep the base system basically the same is it is now.

Cheers,

Giles.

What I would like to see with the future expantions are modular rules, like in Arkham Horror and some new cards like lore or command.

As an exemple they could have hadded the Moral track with the Horde. Do it would have been new troops, deploiment cards and a new optional rules.

Instead, they just did new troops and senarios. like 8 other expantions.

If FFG whant to the sell for future expantions, they should listen to the fans and even buy ideas from the as freelance. The creation would be cheaper and people qould buy them.