Kage2020 said:

I only say "Bug Stompers - We endanger species"... :-)

Alex

ak-73 said:

As far as I can tell Space Marines "know no fear"... otherwise, they still feel everything else. That makes them very human. Even their "know no fear" is not entirely accurate... it just means that they won't falter in the face of their fear... there have been plenty of instances where space marines in the novels did admit to seeing "a terrifying sight" and felt "the grip of fear" on them. They just have been trained to direct that emotion into "fight" not "flight".

I'm not entirely sure why you would think that because a Space Marine is super-human that they have no faults.

If you were to compare them to the knights of old, which in the D6 podcast the developer was inspired by King Arthur and His Court as well as the HBO series Band of Brothers, they have plenty of faults. As far as fairy tales went, these men were "super-human". The heroes of their age... just like the Space Marines.

Do not be fooled into thinking that all was "peachy-keen" in Arthurs Court. Lancelot was a valiant and great warrior, but his main fault was that of his heart in loving Guinevere. Sir Gawain appeared to marry several times and had love affairs. For this reason, Gawain appeared to most authors as a womaniser or the "ladies' man", etc.

Just as these knights had their faults, so do the Space Marines. Just as these knights have their weaknesses, so do the Space Marines.

True, you won't see a Space Marine cheating on his wife... however, you could see a Space Marine lose his mind in anger if the serf that takes care of his armor is slain by a mutant.

Instead of saying that Space Marines are limited in the drama that they can portray, I would rather see how they are limited.

Anyone can say that "x is limited". Give me examples to prove your point.

I'd be interested in seeing what you think could be missing.

SpawnoChaos said:

No, it doesn't necessarily make them human, which is where the contention about the representation of the Marines comes from, i.e. the whole "psycopath" vs. "noble knight" categorisation (the majority of people come somewhere in the middle). Admittedly, GW certainly seem to be coming down to the idea that Marines are just normal guys with bitz 'n' stuff, and that's where FFG is likewise taking things. It's just not the only interpretation.

Of course, that doesn't really matter that much. Most people are going to play them as "normal guys with bitz 'n' stuff" and that's just fine. It will be interesting to see how flexible the rules are to allow for other interpretations.

SpawnoChaos said:

Getting anyone to work with the idea that Marines have faults is more difficult than you can imagine.

Kage

I've been keeping a list of pre-packaged RP hooks to give my players. Here's what I have so far:

• Humanity. Do you see yourself as still human? Or a superior race?
• Home World. How does your human origins influence despite your conditioning?
• Loyalty. Primarily to the Emperor? Chapter? Battle brothers?
• Ambition. How high in the ranks do you wish to climb? What will you do to reach it?
• Glory. How do you want to see yourself reflected? Whose adulation do you seek?
• Hatred. How badly do you hate the enemies of Man? What about your allies?
• Worship. How often do you meditate upon the Emperor? What litanies can you recite?
• Chapter. Chapter rivalry with another? How closely do you follow the Codex Astartes?
• Piety. How pious are you in your Emperor worship? More or less than others?
• Goals. What do you wish to accomplish in this lifetime?

I never understood why there is an assumption that this game won't contain any roleplaying. Space Marines aren't all the same guy, they have a lot of personal diversity. Just look at any of the Black Library novels or even the Codex's. Space Marines re-act differently to the same situation and thusly would come into "conflict" with each other over it.

By "conflict" I mean they would discuss what they wanted to do from different view points. That's basically a big chunk of roleplaying right there. Seeing the character grow and change based on external stimuli? Check, maybe a Space Marine builds a growing distrust of Inquisitors because several have been to willing to sacrifice Astartes when other options have been just as valid (in his view)? Maybe he loses an arm and gets an augmetic that he never quite gets used too?

Space Marines are like Greek myths or Arthurian legends. They are larger than life, not inhuman. You can apply this question to many games, but for some reason Deathwatch has had the question stick and it confuses me. Give the first Horus Heresy book a read if you don't think Space Marines have roleplaying opportunities.

I think this just boils down to a fundamental misconception about what a Space Marine is. It's not nearly as bad as for roleplaying as Mouseguard. I mean that's a game where you play mice and all mice only care about getting cheese and hiding in holes. How can you make an entire game about getting cheese and hiding in holes?

As well as all the other human emotions, Greek heroes and Arthurian knights on occasion knew fear, cowardice, lust, love, greed, pride in their children, etc etc. Space Marines generally don't. That's a pretty significant difference.

I'm sure it's not an insurmountable problem, but there certainly are more challenges to playing a space marine (well) than the larger than life heroes you reference imo.

Dulahan said:

I love a good combat as much as the next man, more if you ask some of my players, however even I get bored if the whole session, every session, is one long repetetive round of combat.

How long have you been playing? (I'm not asking in a disparaging way) It's just in my younger days I agree it was all about the combat, however in my own personal experience you grown out of that obsessively single minded view of rpgs. Maybe I've just been lucky, but every group I've gamed with since I left school (where the groups were uniformly combat-centric such as you describe) have enjoyed combat, but also insisted upon a more rounded and varied experience.

ShatterCake said:

The problem with characters from myths and legends is that they're pretty much uni-dimensional (Ulysses is cunning, Ajax has a god complex, Achilles is a munchkin,...). For mythical characters, that's OK. After all, the purpose of myths is to give people pointers about morality and their lot in life so complex characters wouldn't fit the role. As litterature, they're just, well, not very refined.

I know DW doesn't aim to be another Houses of the Blooded but so far it doesn't seem to give much love to the kind of players I'm dealing with.

On the other hand, it seems Chaos SM do actually make more complex characters so maybe the game can be tweaked in some way to play CSM...

ShatterCake said:

I disagree or, at least, would throw out another option. While I'm sure that Alan Merrett is rubbing his spin-doctoring little hands together in glee, the Marine as "normal" human is just one interpretation when it comes to the 40k universe. There are other, darker options available.

Consider how a Marine is created. Preteen/teenage boys are taken from their homes, sometimes or perhaps often associated with some great trauma (violence, taken by "the gods," etc.). These boys (though they may be considered men in their cultures) have a propensity for violence and killing, but they're also intelligent. In another time or place, the perfect ingredients for a serial killer. These children are then thrust into a training regimen that would make Golding pale (and Battle Royale fans squeal with joy), have their bodies torn apart and reconstructed once a year or so for 6-8 years during which the training does not let up, and subjected to a battery of tests, indoctrination, hypnotherapy and chemotherapy. At any point, their lives might be terminated due to rejection or instability of the zygotes, or, depending on the Chapter, something might happen to what appears to be limited gene therapy (mixed with a bit of hocus-pocus). Dulce est decorum pro patria mori indeed. All through this they've got "growth pains" that even Paul Maudib would start muttering "Fear is the mindkiller..."

And you would consider that to produce a "normal" human psychological framework? Let me know where you live so that I can stay the hell away from that place. (Being tongue-in-cheek here, hence the smiley.) "And they shall known no fear." **** straight. It would have to be pretty amazing if they related to almost anything. These... these... monsters are wrought out of humans and hammered until they will "...kill firstborns while their mamas watch... turn cities into salt... [and] rip the souls from little girls..." (Gabriel, The Prophecy ).

Consider, just consider, that the above might lead some people to deduce that Marines are not the the "noble knight." Not King Arthur, Lt. Winters or Hercules, but Terminator, Todd, and Gabriel. The gods of slaughter, the Angels of Death.

Thomas Daggett, The Prophecy >>>

Did you ever notice how in the Bible, when ever God needed to punish someone, or make an example, or whenever God needed a killing, he sent an angel? did you ever wonder what a creature like that must be like? A whole existence spent praising your God, but always with one wing dipped in blood. Would you ever really want to see an angel?

That's how I think of Marines.

You mentioned that the BL novels paint a picture where the Marines are very human, very normal. I agree with your assessment, but I also say that they (the novels) are wrong. Well, kindasorta. They take a caricatured and ultimately glorified look at the Marines to make them "awesomez," and to make them "interesting" and understandable protagonists. When they're not the protagonist they can be faceless, mindless killers, but as soon as you need to hang a plot around them? Not so much. Ha! It took BL years to allow a book from the perspectives of the Eldar because they are "inhuman," yet the same criteria is not applied to the Marines. Weird.

Of course, if you've made your way through that and still think that Marines are, more or less, normal humans with some extra set of gadgets and twinked out armour? Power to you. I don't have the slightest problem with that. Just allow that others don't necessarily follow the same assumptions and references that you're following.

With that said, the conceit of RPGs is that the PC is "special." One of the suggestions on another board about how to handle this fundamental dichotomy of perception is to capitalise upon this. That is, a Marine's humanity is akin to a ghost in the machine—bubbling underneath the surface and occasionally surfacing. For the truly great Marines, those that are destined to become a part of the Deathwatch or the movers and shakers of a Chapter? Maybe the ghost returns.

Normal humans, though? I'd still have a problem with that. For me it lessens the impact of what Marines are. YMMV, as always.

Kage

Well, the SM are certainly not normal humans; they're at the very least highly specialist, elite fighters. If nothing else, the modern, professional rigour sets them apart from knights of old. If they are to maintain their high combat skills, they have to be pretty single-minded. You don't get to be an elite fighter of the human part of the galaxy without an insane amount of work and dedication. They have even less time for rest and relaxation and friends and families than our pro athletes. Tour of duty, baby.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Additionally the Space Marines have all been physically altered to give them additional capabilities, humans don't have.

Adam France said:

If your games really go like this, then your GM is doing something wrong. Battles, wars, and missions only set the context of the narrative. For example not every action movie is continuous fighting. The combat is a major part but it isn't the only thing going on. This type of millitary-centric game will tend to avoid many of the stereotypical aspects of RPGs... you have some of the best equipment, you aren't socially interacting much, you aren't doing missions for money, you don't seek work it will only seek you, you don't need merchants and you don't need hirelings.

For example, you're playing a team of Deathwatch and you're trying to uncover a Xenos connection to a planetary noble, how do you do that? Yes player could alway derail and go on a killing spree, but despite being marines if the players act too recklessly and without basis for their decision, they'll end up fighting an entire planet. At which point even if they suceed they've really failed. The roleplaying comes in where the players make their decision, they have to solve mysteries and puzzles, and choose when to and when not to fight. The emphasis of the challenges will simply be of a different sort. The role playing should tend to be more between the players than between the players and npcs. Roleplay conflict with between the Deathwatch and NPC should tend to come from conflicts of authority... "who's in charge"... what happens when they find out that the Noble family has ties to Ordo Hereticus and is using Xenos to help aid their war against mutants. Or a reluctant Arbite Judge who feels your actions contradict some obscure aspect of imperial law.

Look at sci-fi action movies... in both Predator and Aliens, the millitant heros storm in and find a "survivor" and in each movie they interact with them differently and it impacts the way the story progresses. That is another part of the role play. In Aliens the pressence of an outsiders to the unit have very strong implications for how it plays out.

Unlike Ripley in Aliens the outsider sometimes hampers the mission, ala Burke. There is roleplaying in that. This might play out as a low level Inquisitor or Acolyte who's been ordered to go along with your Deathwatch team, the Inquisitor thinks he knows better and defies his Lords instructions... what does your team do as outsiders action are more blatant and become riskier?

Or lets take a different example your Deathwatch team is on a rescue mission, they find the sole survivor, a tech priest who wishes to continue his research. Allowing him to continue may be in conflict to your mission, but allowing him to continue may help you by garnering information. If the techpriest were overly fixated on his work he might outright refuse to leave, placing the team in a situation to decide to force him to leave or just leave him or something in between. Their choice of how to approach it may result in the techpriest sabotaging there quiet escape by drawing the attention of whatever xenos are present or aid them by repairing and activating some defense system.

All these types of character conflicts can be mixed up based on the story and provide ample character interactions.

Or lets take a page from a western/samurai... Magnificent Seven/Seven Samurai. The heros come to the town, are inherently untrusting of the outsiders (maybe its a non-imperial world), but the heroes have a mission to defend the town.... now in your campaign it could go beyond that taking a page from modern war, where gaining that trust aids the marines in the fight against insurgent xenos threats.

Because this game avoids alot of "casual" encounters it will just need to emphasize the less casual ones. Your roleplay will have more "intensity" because every interaction will have implications for the mission that mean the difference between life or death for your team. It will just be a challenge on the GM more than usual to be creative to decide how to make these interaction new and unique each time.

Just a quick point, but you do realise that Adam France was responding to an earlier poster, don't you? They had suggested, IIRC, that people (the target audience) wouldn't be interested (or care) in the social/roleplaying side of things anyway, preferring to focus upon the combats. Adam France's reply to that was to suggest that he, as someone who in his group likes the combat more than some, would be bored silly by repetitive combat and nothing else .

I think that there's a difference between being labelled a nay-sayer (I view his responses differently to others that seem far more vested in the game system), and automatically assuming that every comment that someone makes is nay-saying. If anything, in this specific context Adam France seems to have been suggesting that the social/roleplaying aspect is what, for him, would keep him interested in a military/combat-centric game that Deathwatch seems to be. This is also substantiated by reading over many of the previous comments that actually got him labelled as a nay-sayer in the first place.

Okay, not so quick, but just thought that I would point it out.

All is quiet on the Western Front.

Kage

As another idea to stir into the pot, you could follow in the footsteps of a Space Wolf group that got stuck on a world with Dark Eldar raiding the locals.

They used guerrilla tactics, hit and run, until the planets people wanted to help them revolt against the Dark Eldar pirates.

Your Deathwatch kill team could be ordered to disrupt such a pirate ring, with the only support being each other and the local population.

You could base your Primary Objective:

-Remove the presence of the Dark Elder Slavers from world "x"

Secondary Objective:

-Train "x" amount of local inhabitants into a guerrilla force capable of fighting back on their own.

-Re-instill the loyalty to the Imperium that has degraded due to the alien influence

Tertiary Objectives (targets of opportunity):

-Eliminate key Dark Eldar slave ring leaders

-Destroy "x" number of Dark Eldar landing sites

-Kill the lead pirate leading the Dark Eldar

-Capture Dark Elder technology to lean more about their capabilities

This kind of mission would involve heavy role-playing with the local population to convince them to help you. There are PLENTY of areas here to show the more human side of Space Marines.

Keep in mind that a SM is not really the same as another SM.

A Space Wolf was trained fundamentally different than an Ultramarine and nearly every other SM chapter out there. Their entire philosophy, attitude, and "culture" is generally extremely different from every other SM in the team (unless everyone comes from the same chapter).

That is one of the large pieces that influences the roleplaying and interaction between the group members. The Ultramarine will likely tend towards a more negotiation and level-headed course of action. A Space Wolf or Blood Angel, will likely want to face it head on (with bolters blazing, and in the case of the Space Wolf, a stein of ale in hand too). And so on. The dichotemy of the different chapters' cultures and how they relate to the other marines in the team is an immense source of roleplaying potential. SM may all have similar physical "super-powers", but they are fundamentally different mentally and socially.

The recruitment is different between chapters.

The training is different between chapters.

The augmentation process is different between chapters.

And so on.

Yes, if you are running a DW team comprised of all the same Chapter, the PCs might have a more difficult time roleplaying differences in personalities. If they are all different Chapters, there shouldn't be any problems with roleplaying and having each player act and feel different, and respond to situations differently.

dvang said:

This is very true and would only enhance the above mission.

The Space Wolf may want to do a guerrilla warfare tactic. The Blood Angel maybe would rather sneak onto one of their slave ships and ride it back to their leadership to face them head-on. An Ultramarine may suggest destroying their bases of operations to ensure that they can't land anywhere, thereby causing them to leave on their own. A Dark Angel may rebel against the notion of training the "peasants" in the secrets of warfare.

These are all great role-playing aids that would alter the above mission profile, perhaps completely replacing the Secondary and Targets of Opportunity missions. However, it wouldn't change the Primary Mission, to eliminate the Dark Eldar presence on the planet.

Perhaps that will be how the games will normally be run. The Primary mission is very specific, while everything else is mutable based on the team sent in.

Kage2020 said:

I think this little narrative alone would be a mine for roleplaying in and on itself. The link with the storytelling-line of games isn't even half-bad, the whole idea of a "beast" within, or just someone very ignorant that, with a sense of wonder, discovers the world outside the rigors of a Chapter. In my "design diary" for our upcoming campaign (this is not meant to sound presumptuous), I figured that the DeathWatch stint would be a career move for a Space Marine. It might not be unfathomable that Honour Guards, Company Captains, Chapter Masters and other leading men actually require some sort of external service experience before they can be promoted to such lofty positions - many hierarchical institutions have systems that require externships. Being in the Deathwatch will confront the SpaceMarine with personal freedom on an umparalleled scale.

When Marines, within their own Chapter, are on a mission, than surely there must be some that are more relaxed and others that are stricter about the Rule. Obviously, in a team, you might get reported for all kinds of stuff, and on return to your ship the choirboys get seals of purity and the slackers get flagellation and penitence. Even for the very zealous, that might get old after,ummm, 20-120 years of active duty. Just imagine the thrill you must feel when being seconded to the DeathWatch.

"Report to the Commander of Watch Fortress Erioch in the Jericho Reaches. Paint your Armour, obey him in everything that he says and only return after being honourably discharged of your Duty"

You leave all the men you have been fighting with for so long, and embark on a voyage to this place, far away, that might take ? 5 to 10 ? years just to get their on your own. Surely your buddies will see you off, but the chapter will send you by yourself - maybe with a couple of serfs and tons of equipment, a secret communiquee for the Master of the Death Watch perhaps, but other than that, for the first time since you were an adult, you will be alone for a long time. Then you will be indoctrinated to the Watch and form a squad with people that you have never have met before and might think you have every reason not to trust completely. They will have weird customs, maybe even a language barrier, and certainly have very odd habits that, back in the real Chapter, would have gotten you a good self-thrashing with plenty of guilty, guilty, guilty penitence if you exhibited them. Invariably, you will adapt these customs, asking yourself whether you are forfeitting yours soul by drinking beer with a Space Wolf. Man, you are having the time of your life. At first you will find it very scary, your confessor nowhere available, your squad mates at the other side of the galaxy, all your daily routine gone. You might even be homesick, even though you might lack the word for that emotion. Sure, you have been by yourself during mission by chance or requirement, but always, always your goal was, ultimately, to find your Chapter again, get scanned for signs of Chaos and join your buddies in the dormitory to tell them all about it. Now, you are alone, unsure of your place and purpose - which you never, ever have been ever since you started realizing what a Space Marine is somewhere during half time of all those dreadful surgeries that you underwent.

And now something very very scary happens. Something that has not happened to you for a very long time, and something that has never happend to you uncontrolled, as far as you know -

You change. Slowly, but inescapable. You start to question things you thought set in stone - Chapter Routine, Battle Order, tactics. Maybe not in bigger lines (the Emperor must be served and the wicked must be exterminated), but when you see Marines of the Mentor legions or meet other, more enlightened fellow Marines that tell you things you never even remotely thought about (maybe one of them tells you what the Emperor looks like, another tells you that there are telepathic Orcs, someone else tells you about his sister taken with a black ship and now a sister of Silence, others have heard about the Eye - as you plug your ears, unsure whether talking about is heresy already).

Worst of all - it is chance that determines how you change. Chance that determines your squadmates. Back in your own Chapter, you were trained and psychometrically matched in endless sessions to ensure optimum group dynamics. Now, you just meet a random other guy with very different experiences.

Imagine what happens.

Besides, there is no reason to assume that every Space Marine knows everything that is written in the real life library of WH40K books. No reason at all to assume that they have all encountered the same foes. Maybe one Chapter did not fight Eldar during the last 60 years or so of your active duty, while the other Chapter never fought Chaos. Maybe one Chapter has a more liberal stance to reason and the Marine knows more about the Horus Heresy, or any other event clouded in mystery for the rest. I believe the player should have considerable leeway in determining his own character's previous experience. Given mature players, this alone will make a source of very rich roleplaying, with one Marine telling the other how he fought the Chaos Marines (of which the other had only a very vague idea). Mind you, this is not about reading a passage from a sourcebook, this is about trying to imagine what the Marine would tell a fellow Marine about the experience, taking into account his own Chapter, the fellow WatchMarines Chapter and your own personality. Maybe you are of the Dark Angels and would rather not advertise the role of some of your fellow Marines during the Apostasy and have to claim ignorance if the subject of Horus comes up - mind you, the players will all know this, but the Marines might not.

So, how do you re-evaluate your place in the universe,

what is your hope after the stint with the Death Watch

which enemy would you like to fight and why

which enemy would you rather not fight and why

what is the most breathtaking thing you experienced as a Marine

what is the best memory from your childhood days

what do you remember about your childhood

whom do you trust in your Chapter

what is your take on Chapter serfs ? Some accompanied you to the Watch Fortress - are there any that you have grown fond of ? How would you describe the relationship ?

What is your greatest desire

What is your greatest fear (mind you, fear of failure or fear of fear is fear nontheless).

And there you have it. Roleplaying opportunities coming out of your ears. And I just got started, I am sure you can outdo me in creativity...

Well put Ariolan, you stated the some notions that I was getting at, just with more explanation behind it.

Alas, if I had more time, I would have written something just as long.

SpawnoChaos said:

I think you might have missed the point of what I and others have been talking about. It's identification issue.

Example: in DH I play a Scum Acolyte who has been in several prisons since adolescence. He has been tortured by guards, disfigured by inmates and crippled by disease (all rolled up fairly and squarely with Heroes of Tomorrow, btw). He carries with him a stained shard of glass, a reminder of the first human being he killed, a fellow inmate. His experiences have made him a somewhat grim and bitter fellow, turning to hit-jobs in the B. of Thollos after release before being saved from a life of sin by the Inquisition.

Right now Space Marines (coming from a tabletop background, admittedly) appear to me as more or less super-human look-a-likes. That would make identification with the individual you're supposed to play more difficult. Therefore it's a prime task of the RPG (and I don't say it can't be done) to give the necessary background and frame of reference so that a sense of identification can be garnered.

Alex

ak-73 said:

I have no doubt that this will be covered in the book. I can't foresee FFG skimping on this detail when character creation has been a huge delight in Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader alike, full of details about where you came from and such.

SpawnoChaos said:

As mentioned we've been using HoT to further flesh out the background; it's been working very well for DH. With DW? Remains to be seen. :-)

Alex

ak-73 said:

Most SM are not born to it. Most SM aren't completely mind-wiped. They very well could have past experiences (pre-SM) to draw upon. Regardless of that, they still have periods of their initiation, training, etc that will be different from others. So, a SM PC might have been captured by Xenos slavers and tortured, or displayed as a trophy until he escaped/was rescued. He could have a shard of glass, a reminder of the first enemy he killed in the name of the Emperor. He could have been the sole survivor of an ambushed squad on a jungle death world, and crawled his way back to base through dense man-eating jungle. He could have faced down a charging Carnifex with a combat knife. He could have been sent as a bodyguard to an ambassador. He could have lived a monastic life doing research for the chapter in their archives. He could have been assigned to the chapter home world's medical facilities. Just because they are SM, doesn't mean they haven't had adventures or a "life" prior to being in the Deathwatch. You can give the PCs plenty of history (and personal quirks/knowledge), even constraining yourself to just their SM careers pre-Deathwatch.

dvang said:

And that's exactly the point: to think that this period isn't a lasting one, that SM don't to have dedicate almost all of their days to drill, dril, drill is unrealistic. Space Marines being the elite of Mankind, these standards gained through an insane training regime... if they'd slack just a bit, their abilities would drop.

It seems to me that the daily life of a SM is less about fighting the corruption inside but rather the complacency.

Anyway, SM are expected to function as that's what they have been groomed for. Even more so than people are expected to perform by a global player corporation these days. But perhaps that's where the role-playing in the end will come from: the different personalities, tempers and backgrounds bubbling beneath the surface of the facade of the super-warriors.

Alex

ak-73 said:

HoT? Drawing a blank or horribly lost here.

dvang said:

It's almost a pre-requisite they did something big before becoming a Space Marine - and most Chapters have their own personal Death World they recruit from. Citing the Space Wolf omnibus, one of the methods of choosing is the Marines going where there's about to be a battle and watching it, picking those who fought the most valiantly.

Others have trials like "If you're the right age, survive the trek to our base, and you'll be considered worthy." Never mind said trek is anything but easy. Probably through miles of the most horrid wasteland imaginable, and likely populated by things which can chew up a man and spit him out with ease. That said I could certainly see a chapter taking a particularly valorous young guard conscript (Or even penal squadder!) who they saw in battle and giving him the geneseed... though that depends on the chapter. And then no doubt the background stuff for each chapter will have something to represent other past experiences, I wouldn't be shocked to see a chart like in Rogue Trader for things like that. Pick chapter, go from there to a Recruitment Table, Training Table, Notable Battles, Crowning Glory, etc.

Though recall you can't be much older than a mid teen before you're chosen, otherwise you're very unlikely to survive the change. One of the Horus Heresy short stories talks about all the Space Wolf heroes that wanted to Join Russ but were too old. Thousands tried... only a few score survived. So it is potentially possible. Just not easy.