commoner said:

Why does everyone assume that just because I say this game takes quite a bit from descent that it's not also an RPG. I fully believe this game is a hybrid of both systems and can fit very well into both genres. The board is obviously abstract since it's cards and tokens being placed in relation with each other. Over all, I don't debate this isn't an RPG. It most certainly is, but why do people need to argue that it isn't a board game, when it has a lot of things in common with a very popular one in Descent.

Thanks for the response though Commoner. I appreciate it.

Because people have used the board game analogy to be dismissive of WFRP. Posting short off-the-cuff posts like your first response increases the odds of people assuming this. Your reply to the Dev. would have been more helpful to the OP and less likely to be mistaken as flamebait Its unfortunate that posts may get misunderstood but its not about you so much as about the history of the reception this game got on various forums.

I find it best to avoid long descriptions of why i don't like a game, its pretty subjective, and does it really help inform anyone else? After all they will have an entirely different subjective reaction. Thats what i admire about the Yog-sothoth forums. Multple cthulhu RPGs are featured and discussed with a "no raggin' on each other" policy. it works

Just reread your first post Le Blanc, it is not off-the-cuff but hopefully you'll recognise what I mean about the ease of misunderstanding.

For a first time GMs I'd suggest Savage Worlds since the Explorer edition is cheap enough to pick up on the off chance you'll use it. Also Spirit of the Century has lots of great advice for GMs, though you'll need to kitbash in Cyberpunk since it's set in early 20th century.

LeBlanc13 said:

Your welcome Leblanc. I also do support your statement that this game has utilized board game elements to help simplify complex and abstract information into easily utilized, memorable and identifiable pieces. But my next statement is, so what? Is that really superior to battlemats and minis? Is it really all that better than any other system with extremely limited, fixed turn orders, trying to simulate 6 seconds of combat? After all, RPG's are simply interactive board games, except nobody can "win" in an RPG and RPG's tell stories. Otherwise, the use of dice to achieve certain success and failure rates is seen in the most basic board games. In a nutshell, RPG's are board games on steroids (or Sherm, if you will).

Why I support the token economy system of Warhammer is this: all RPG's basically have the same sort of "pools" and complex system of actions that require a player to be familiar with a great deal of information. With the high component interface, it relieves the strain of system know how to allow players to better approach the narrative elements of the game. The tokens I find very useful as a GM to gauge the relative level of injury, fatigue, stress, and other conditions effecting the player. I can visually see if I should go easier or harder on someone without having to ask for, "how many hit points do you have left." I also find the various way these components interface give a great deal of system options that other rpg's do not, or if they do are typically too detrimental to actually use. This is best summed up by my player who, recently pointed out how in White Wolf, she would always forget to use her Willpower to add a success simply because she would forget about it (as I've heard thousands of players grumble about). But now, in Warhammer she never forgets a single fortune point. I honestly cannot comprehend why the RPG community has chosen to demonize this game for including these components (not to say that you are) as they are simply a very informative and helpful tools to clarify abstract mechanics for the sake of practicality. Is it really such a bad thing to depart from the traditional model if these tools can actually improve game play? Or is it simply sour grapes because Jay Little came up with the idea and nobody in twenty years went, wait a minute, this would totally work? I am sure many gamers find them distracting at first (my players growned and grumbled for months about the funny new dice and all the cards) until they get used to them and they become second nature. I also find my players now comment in the reverse, I like x because it's soo easy to remember, it's soo easy to use, etc.

I also disagree that the board is abstracted in the cards. The optional trackers are the closest thing to a board. Ultimately from my play experience, I find there is nothing even close to a board nd the mechanics are a far, far departure from any form of board especially compared to systems which use hex or square grids to track range proximity etc. Honestly, I never used them. After all, if I wanted to play miniature wars, there are much better systems for that. Again, that is a preference and I know there are tons of gamers who love it, so game on and by all means, enjoy.

@ OP:

I did suggest Warhammer over the other systems because I thought you wanted to know about Warhammer. To remain as unbiased though as possible, in my opinion, I find the Cyberpunk genre has been poorly executed in all the major games out there. Though I love Cyberpunk, as I cut my narrative teeth on it, I am really, really not a fan of the system. The old friday night firefight was a joke! However, if I did have to choose a system, I would take Savage worlds for it, but that would take a lot of modding. However, I do recommend Warhammer 3e because, as I stated before, it has all the same trappings of a Cyberpunk genre - minus cyberware - set in a fantasy setting. Dark Heresy is close, but that is ultimately about demons and war. Steampunk is close, but it lacks in the dystopia that is the meat and potatoes of cyberpunk. Besides, before Steampunk, there was Warhammer. Which, in ways, you could say was potentially one of the forefathers of the movement.

Daedalum said:

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I do try to keep my posts from becoming huge essays.... and I'm not always successful. I'm not a fan of reading large posts and I'm not a fan of writing them either. See what you made me do!

You're point is taken though Daedalum. I'll try to separate myself from the rest of the h8ers out there by clarifying my point in a concise manner. Frankly, for me, I don't hate WFRP3e. I just don't think the mechanics and tools fit my style of play. I like showing up to the table with books, a few sets of dice and a mini or two. That's about the extent of what I enjoy for equipment when playing a game. We do use battle maps normally when minis are involved, but that's about it.

I lost interest in D&D with 4e specifically because they recommended and really needed all of the extra tokens to play it correctly. I was an Avid D&D player since 1983 and played through all of the editions including 4th. The pandering they did to the MMO market turned me off and then the requirement of carrying tokens, a tower of minis and map cards wherever I go cinched it. Unfortunately, after that bad taste already in my mouth, I tried WFRP3e and they managed to carry it to the next level, I knew this game really wasn't for me even though I LOVE the setting and really wanted to like the game.

I've recently been reading through the rules for Dragon Age The RPG and I love the system. It's pretty streamlined. Lots has been left to the judgment of the GM and the dice system is pretty sweet (roll 3d6 with mods trying to beat a TN assigned by the GM. If doubles are rolled on any two dice it results in 'stunt' effects. This could be a multitude of effects as detailed in the rules. An odd colored die (from the 3d6) called the dragon die dictates how many stunt points are available to purchase additional effects on the results. Each effect has a cost and while you can't use the same effect multiple times, you can have multiple effects on one action.)

If anyone is looking for a system that doesn't require tokens or an elaborate ruleset to play, Dragon Age could be the game for you. It was also written by Chris Pramas at Green Ronin who put a lot of the 2nd edition WFRP game together, although the system is totally different.

Okay, just for the city of middenhiem I have two detailed adventure four adventures, two complete city guides and some seventy or eighty named and fully stated NPCs. For the wider empire, it isn't really a single country, but rather a series of very closely tied countries, each with its own culture and customs, and that doesn't include the city states which exist with in te empire. We also have varying degrees of detail for bretonnia, and the southern nation(tillia ect all), boarder princes, kislev, araby and norsca. That covers only human nations, you have numerous elven cultures, many different dwarven city states, as well as lowland dwarfs.

In the empire alone, we have as many detailed villainous organisation as the entire eberron line, and that is before you get into Vampires, beastmen, green skins and skaven.

As for styles of play; dungeon crawls, piracy on the high sea, epic journeys, social power play, political intrigue and much more besides are possible. It's hardly one blood cult after another.

LeBlanc13 said:

at that point I was thinking of Commoners post regarding 40k rpgs rather than you. Was typing in a rush. I just think critique that comes mainly from a personal reaction can become an emotive slippery slope. Yay for cold analytical judgment