Hey All,

I am a novice when it comes to GMing. But I am looking for a new game to play with some friends of mine. We usually play D&D and I am usually just a PC. I am wanting to start my own Game and GM but I am not sure what game I want to get into. I do want something different then D&D though. The game I am looking at are Rouge Trader, Warhammer Fantasy, and Shadowrun.

I wanted to get some feedback from the community about Warhammer Fantasy and how you guys like it. I am alos looking for something that will be a good entry for a PC going to GM.

Any tips or thoughts are welcome. I will be doing some research on my own but wanted to get some of the players thoughts as well.

Thanks,

Erick J.

If you like Descent from FFG's line up, you'll really like WFRP... I think.

I'm not a fan of WFRP3, but I love Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader and Shadowrun.

It may help for you to explain what you mean when you say "different" from D&D... Are you wanting a different genre? Style?

Please be specific about what you are looking for and I'm sure quite a few people on this site will chime in.

Ditto LB. Its much easier to give you a feel for WHFRP if we had an idea of what you like/don't like and what you want that's "Different".

Warhammer fantasy roleplay would be a good start. It's the closest to D&D 4e that you'll find. The cool thing about WFRP is not always the system however..it's the world. You have TONS of resources for this world and there are a lot of 2E fan scenarios that are easy to convert to 3e.

WFRP3e was very intuitive for my players who have experience in playing D&D (and other systems). It takes you one night to get used to the dice rolls and make sure that you're doing things right.

A normal D&D game is like this: 1) move using 5' squares 2) roll a d20 and add your bonuses 3) compare that to your power card and roll damage.

A WFRP3e game is like this: 1) move from medium range to close range to engaged range, 2) grab a stack of dice depending on how crazy you are going to be, 3) compare that to your power card and subtract the opponents' toughness from your damage.

The ability to "go the extra mile" by spending extra fatigue or stress allow your character to push beyond the normal when the player wants to. I'd say that's the big difference.

The dice and world background are what keeps me coming back. Having abilities on power cards is nothing new. Using chits instead of a pencil to count things is also nothing new (I use pencil instead..but most of my players like the chits). You use wound cards instead of a pencil to track damage and when it's a critical you flip it over (to reveal your special surprise!

The only drawback is that the rulebook is just a touch more complicated than it needs to be and there arent' enough examples so when you're learning it from scratch, it can be annoying for the first readthrough.

If you're going to purchase the game ($58.00 on Amazon.com), do the following before running it for players:

1. I HIGHLY recommend this document to make it easy for you: www.headlesshollow.com/freebies_games.html#wfrp3
2. Print out the INDEX: www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/wfrp/support/warhammer-fantasy-roleplay-living-index.pdf
3. Print out and run the DEMO scenario against yourself: www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/wfrp/WFRP-download-promo/wfrp_day_late_shilling_short.pdf After you've familiarized yourself with the rules, THEN run it the demo again just to teach the players.
4. Ignore any reference that says it's for 3 players. It can be played by any number of players, but you may want to copy some extra Basic Ability Cards (melee attack, ranged attack, etc.) and you'll be sharing some dice (until you get extras).

Jay H

..

As to what I am looking for is A different system and settings. I am very much wanting a sci-fi cyber punkish type game but the WHFB game intrigues me with the way it is played so far.

I guess entry level is something else I am looking for, something that would be easy for a new GM to work with and run.

Hey Vash! Its Bikhu (aka Calder the wizard)

I truly love the Warhammer fantasy world/setting and have loved it since I played 1st edition WFRP way back when. I bought 3ed and really like it. I was going to try and run it over maptool with Steven and whoever else but I realized that everybody would probably have to have a copy and that someone would need to figure out how to code the dice into maptools (something I am not capable of doing).

I have GMed one game so far with a face-to-face group and I think it went really well and I really enjoyed the system. I found that at least for that first game there seemed to be a lot to keep track of as a GM but that might be me or just getting used to the system. The counters can become a bit much but there are fan-made character sheets and other things to help with that. I am a bit concerned with the low amount of advanced careers out for the game so far but can deal with it for now. All of that is acceptable in light of the more immersive and story centered game I think it is delivering in comparison to DnD (which I do still enjoy even if I don't have the time to play currently).

Anyway, just wanted to in and say hi (assuming this really is the Vash108 I think it is) and let you know what I though of the game.

Vash108 said:

Honestly, if you are new to GM'ing, there is a great deal in Warhammer 3e that are great for novices. Things like the trackers, the fact all the rules will be out for you on cards, so when a player has a question you can quickly help them interpret that information is great. I have little experience with 4e, but from what it sounds like and what I read it really is nothing like it. There are some concepts (like the action cards) that bear a shadow of 4e, but it's only a shadow and far surpasses it in design.

I will say, this dice system and the overall system mechanic is easy to understand and quick to learn. Sure, it may take a little bit of time to figure out how to translate everything but it will take time. The fact all pertinent information is printed on cards puts all the information right at your fingertips so you will be able to manage not only the game, but the events you are running. 3e also breaks down many fundemental RPG ideas into very basic concepts and does it well. It will give you tools to easily move on to other settings if you choose to.

As for players...I will say players get this system. It is very easy to add color blocks together, roll them, and count successes. Also, managing cards and things such as health and fatigue/stress is easy, by far the easiest system to keep track of everything happening during the game. The other great thing is a single dice roll communicates a great deal of information, not only in terms of combat, but in terms of the story. The dice actually aid you and the players, in creating the story of the game and can help you out many times when you are in a pinch.

Also for the players, careers are easy to choose, easy to understand, and they are not stuck in a single tracked and have great deal of freedom to explore or change their character during the course of the game. It's a framework, but generation and leveling is very player-friendly. This game was written to eliminate any feeling of players versus GM and for the players and GM to explore the setting, develop the characters, and tell great stories.

As for the warhammer setting. Cyberpunk is my favorite genre too! Long before the word steam punk was ever written down Warhammer had the first real fantasy-punk. It has many similar thematic components of the "punk" genre and has a great deal of opportunities to tell some pretty interesting stories and create some very fascinating scenes. The imagery is powerful on its own right, that added with its thematic elements and its purely "dark and grim" setting makes it a win, win. It's really the only fantasy setting I go near.

As to the other two games. Shadowrun has a hugely cumbersome system, with a great deal of character generation work. There are so many options, so many bits of cyberware, it's almost maddening. It's also the game where I see GM's lose control over their own games the most as players find new combos of powers, abilities, and gear to really just run havoc over a game. Plus, in my opinion, though I love cyberpunk, the idea of a dragon polymorphed into a CEO of a corperation who is a wizard and a hacker is a bit...lame?

Rogue Trader and Dark Heresy are warhammer 40k clones of the warhammer genre, but done fairly sloppy. I feel they lack much of the flavor of Fantasy, the grim, the lurking threats, the shadow of fear, humanity, and simply replaced it with WAR! The cover even says it on the tabletop manual, there is only war. Not that Fantasy doesn't have its fair share of war, it's just a better designed genre with way more interesting characterization. Don't get me wrong, I love 40k and Rogue Trader/Dark Heresy as well, I just find that genre lacking. It also really has nothing to do with the "cyberpunk' feel, only a bit in image, but not much in the actual substance of the genre. The system used for it is very flat. It's easy to learn (roll a d100, roll below), but at low levels there is a huge miss factor and advancement is pretty linear without much freedom for the players and then at high levels your players are so good, they don't fail at anything. Some of the rules (like burst fire) have been handled much, much better in other systems as well and much of the "fun" factor of the various combat maneuvers are a clone of dnd 3e. It also has a dozen or so critical hit charts for each weapon type you have to keep referring to each time a critical is scored and it really bogs down game-play as compared to simply flipping over a card. It's your pretty basic, standard old RPG system and really is a nothing to see here mechanic. Sure, it's nice that it stays out of the way most of the time, but sometimes it can really bog down as players fail and fail again. Still, it's a great time, and by far better than Shadowrun in my opinion.

Lastly, if you have played Descent, I don't want you to get the wrong impression. Warhammer IS nothing like descent. There is a similarity in the way certain dice symbols (surges and boons) interact with the game mechanics, but the same designer worked on both games so you can imagine why pieces of that mechanic show up in Warhammer. If all you did was walk through dungeons, killing monsters, it would feel somewhat like Descent as the dice interface would be a rough approximation of what Descent Dice due (just badly, because Descent dice do that so much better). Oh, and both use cards and chits. So other than a 20% similarity between the two dice mechanics and both games use cards and chits (brilliantly in Warhammer I might add to organize information,) this game is nothing like Descent, in so many ways I can even begin to explain them all, starting with Descent is a board Game and Warhammer is a roleplaying game. In all honesty, it's like saying: If you like Yahtzee, you'll like Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader, as in those games you roll dice and tally up the effect of those dice on a piece of paper, always hoping to roll better rolls as you score more points/damage for how much better those rolls are.

Bikhu said:

The one and only Vash108. Whats up buddy?

commoner said:

RT and DH are not done fairly sloppy. Since you tend to wax poetic and are prone to long tirades, I'll just say I disagree with you and leave it at that. Less fuel to add to the fire. Of course, this will be read as an insult most likely and I'll get a long tirade about how I refuse to present my points so you can pick them apart.

I will address the 2nd paragraph above though. The only differences between Descent and WFRP3 is the setting, emphasis on RPing and a board. Yes, the dice symbols are different, but they are the SAME otherwise. Look at the contents of the main Descent game and you'll see more in common than cards and chits. The dice are very similar with some symbols changed to be compatible with the new setting.

Interesting.... I didn't know Jay Little hopped over from Descent. That really clarifies quite a bit for me.

Back to the original post. Based on your further clarification Vash, I'd suggest Shadowrun. Of the games you've listed it's the most cyberpunkish of the group. Corporate hacker dragons not withstanding. Players can blow up the game by min/maxing characters, but that doesn't break the game. Someone that is near immune to missle fire because they have a ridiculous body dice pool can and most likely are susceptible to other types of attacks. Magic can attacks that do alternate types of damage can really put a cramp in the day of someone built to resist physical damage.

Shadowrun would be my choice to present you with for a different system.

For once I agree with you Leblanc13 . DH and RT are very good games by themselves, nothing sloppy about them. They are very different from WFRP3e, but it's perfectly possible to like all of them. Of course, I don't agree on the Descent comparison, since Descent is a board game and wfrp3e is nothing like a board game in my opinion (but let's not go into that discussion again).

To Vash108, others have really given you quite a lot of input on wfrp3e, I'll just say if you really want some "sci-fi cyber punkish" I guess Shadowrun is what you should do, that's basically the definition of Shadowrun. Rogue trader is a bit different from what you're used to if coming from DnD, I'd say that Dark Heresy might be better suited if you want to play in the 40k world. But there's nothing wrong with RT, you should just be aware that gaming in RT will be on much larger scale than what's normally done in roleplaying games.

If the other games you are playing in are of a D&D nature and you want to run something different I would recommend Rogue Trader, Dark Heresy or the upcoming Deathwatch. While WFRP is a different setting and different setof rules, it is still fantasy adventure.

Only chiming in to clarify a point. I was not involved with design or development of Descent, that game was designed by Kevin Wilson. My time with FFG has been focused as the Senior RPG Designer for Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay.

gruntl said:

Thanks Gruntl! I appreciate the back up.

I must clarify, while I'm not a fan of the boxed contents of WFRP and it's style of play... I REALLY wanted to like it. I love the Warhammer setting and find it a rich and extraordinary world setting. I am personally not a fan of big box games where you have to carry around 5 different boxes to play. Frankly, from day 1 when I opened up my core box and found it missing quite a few "Core" pieces, this is where I saw the WFRP3 game going. I can't buy into this based on my own biased preferences.

I'm still hanging around these forums because I really like this community as a whole. Plus, I am already over on the DH/RT forums so why not pop over here every so often to see what's up. I know my posts are not received well at times because of my views of this system, but I am respectful where respect is due.

Back to the original poster. I really think based on your comments that Shadowrun will be the game you will really enjoy. Cyberpunk is as Cyberpunk does.

@Ynnen,

Thanks for clarifying. I shouldn't have taken Commoner's word at face value without verifying it first. One thing I have been thoroughly impressed with is the fact that the designers at FFG take time to review the forums and take into consideration the comments of it's patrons. I respect what you have tried to do with WFRP3 even though the game doesn't personally appeal to me. Unfortunately WFRP2 was on it's way out due to a lack of support by the time FFG took over and I applaud your team (You and the freelancers) for resurrecting it.

Warhammer Fantasy is a fine background setting and it deserves to be out there competing with the big boys.

From what I have seen so far, your team has treated this game with the respect it deserves.

LeBlanc13 said:

Then he should play Cyberpunk not Shadowrun. Cyberpunk is best played with Cyberpunk.

Shadowrun. Where man meets magic and machine FTW.

Peacekeeper_b said:

One would think that, but I hated Cyberpunk. Shadowrun, I loved!

LeBlanc13 said:

Extraordinary yes- but not rich. One not very good detailed country to play in and only 1 main playing style (investigate and catch the next chaos cultist) This you call "rich"? What types of settings are normal for you? 5 pagers?

No I would call Forgotten Realms, Aventurien or Eberron "rich". There you have dozens of sourcebooks with hundreds of different terrains, cultures and many playing styles. Want to play in the desert or in the jungle? Want to play in the elemental plane? No problem. You will find official modules for such styles en galore. But calling warhammer in the current incarnation a "rich" setting is totally wrong. Its rather monodimensional in comparision with other main rpg settings.

Nonetheless the few elements which are presented are special enough to keep me interested (and posting here from time to time). That and the grafical superority and race presentation of the warhammer universe.

Super...

I'm referring to the setting as a whole. Not what's been produced for this particular edition of WFRP. They have the previous editions, novels and wargames to fall back on for source materials.

You are correct that this edition is still pretty sparce on background materials.

back on topic, i think you might want to at least take a look at eclipse phase if your would rather do sci-fi. i think you can still get a pdf for free from the game's publishers, not sure if this is till true. i think the rule is look it over for free and if you like it and play it you will pay for it to keep it going.

shadowrun is fun too, but when someone says cyberpunk i think hard sci-fi and not fantasy with sci-fi trappings so i actaully agree with peacekeeper about cyberpunk being the best cyberpunk

there are actually a lot of fun sci-fi/fantasy games out there, you can play rifts with a sci-fi bias by ignoring world books that are too fantasy. after the bomb (another palladium game), gamma world (WOTC is coming out with a new edition), never played traveller but maybe?, i want to play HELLAS it just looks crazy and fun, 3:16 Carnage is a very cool game, tons of good stuff out there

and wfrp3rd is a great fantasy game, comparisons with descent are irrelevant even if well meant. if you like a mix of elegant game mechanics, narrative-focused gameplay, with a rich setting you will dig wfrp3. (i don't get superklaus's whole objection to using rich to describe the setting in wfrp3. i suspect it is just a misunderstanding of the term. he reads rich as: abundant, high quantity where to me rich connotes: of high quality and value as in rich in flavor, color, setting, characterization,etc.)

Peacekeeper_b said:

Shadowrun - Magic/Dragons/Metas > Cyberpunk

Strip out all of the extra fantasy trappings and SR makes for a much better cyberpunk game. GURPS, if you get the right books, also makes for a very deep, complex Cyberpunk game, though its math intensive and not newbie friendly. And, if you like 3:16 Carnage in the Stars, i would totaly recomend checking out Remember Tomorrow, its made by the same guys and is the smae rules lite play style, but very 80's cyberpunk.

LeBlanc13 said:

I played both back in the day, and I found that Cyberpunk was a poor system, but a great setting. I liked Shadowrun, but I also found it a poor system. But I have not played the new addition, so hopefully it is better now. Is there a ne edition of Cyberpunk? I believe that WFRP is a much darker setting then Shadowrun. Although that might having something to do with my GMs.

I really like the system for WFRP. It has got me back into Roleplaying for the first time in years.

There is a new version of Cyberpunk, and its painful to read. As in it hurts your eyes cause the guy who did the layout and design hates the reader on a deeply personal level. Its also less playable out fo the gate than WHFR, as you get one, maybe 2 tiers into it, and you have nothign left to accumlulate.

You could easily and totally run a cyber-punk setting DH campaign. Start the acolytes on a hive world, for example, and you can fit in a "Bladerunner-esque" atmosphere without a problem. In fact, Bladerunner would make a basis for a great adventure, with the acolytes hunting hereteks and real-looking servitors.

dvang said:

Even better, how about hunting down a rogue assassin using combat drugs like polymorphine to stay hidden.

LeBlanc13 said:

Well, since I'm being slightly misrepresented here, I figure I should say that if you look at the credits page, Jay Little gave a special thanks to Kevin Wilson. That was the basis of my statement. Now I wasn't in the offices when all this went down but I doubt the special thanks to Kevin Wilson was a thanks over how Kevin baking him cookies everyday. Jay has done an amazing job on the game and I am absolutely stunned by how innovative and brilliant many of the design principles he brought to this system and how he has re-focused the Warhammer world is without a doubt, absolutely fantastic. I was merely commenting on how I can definitely see Kevin's influences on parts of the game and taking into account the special thanks line in the credits.

After rereading my post, I do feel I should also clarify my post. It was a bit sloppy (lol) and for that I apologize. Dark Heresy and its subsequent titles are not sloppy by any stretch of the imagination. It is a well done system and they have done a great job pulling something out of 40k. The sloppiness I attest to 40k genre which is an otherwise sloppy version of Warhammer Fantasy. Everything about 40k is a narrative choice to push it toward a single focus, WAR! The justification goes as far as Space Orks who are walking vegetables of doom. FFG and Black Library have done well to create some form of genre out of a rather poorly design principle, but they only have so much room to maneuver in that pit. There are many great ideas to 40k (space marines, the Imperium), but overall, it falls short when compared to Warhammer and in my opinion, should be completely re-addressed as a concept. I, however, still believe as a system it is plagued by many of the design flaws that 2e add such as wiff and power cap and too many critical hit charts, bland combat maneuvers, and very fixed advancement system. That some of even the Deathwatch mechanics (missions, etc) have some of the punch of 3e without all the interesting flavor that things such as party cards and nemesis cards have.

@ Le Blanc

LOL, right we should judge warhammer from its open box point of view. Well, then I guess every other RPG ever written is just like every other RPG because they all have: Fixed controlling attribues, wound points, attributes, a skill list, use one of three basic die mechanics (roll above, roll below, dice pool), involve specialized powers that modify dice or deal damage, a similar healing system, charts, experience points, etc. That's just opening the book. It's identical to all these other books. LOL.