Hi,
I’ve tried the Ice Queen rules from TalismanIsland and they are great but I regret the fact that we don’t see a real Frostmarch with it.

(You can download it there)

So, I did some changes.

1) I use the Ice Queen alternative ending.

2) I use tokens to represent the advance of the Frostmarch. Everytime you draw a Frostmarch Adventure card, put a token on the space at the end of your turn.

3) If you draw an Enemy from the Frostmarch adventure card, use the following rule: For every token present on the space, add 1 to the Craft or Strength of this enemy.

4) For every token present on a space you just land on, roll a die at the end of your turn. For every 1 or 2, roll another die, consult the chart on the Ice Queen’s card (from Talismanisland), read out the result and put the Ice Queen mini on your space.

5) The Ice Queen attacks a character every time he attempts to cross her square. She’s got only 6 on craft and strength, but you add 1 for every token present on the square. A character defeating or evading the Ice Queen must continue his move. A character defeated by the Ice Queen loses one life and his turn ends immediately in the Ice Queen space.

6) When a character reaches the Crown of Command, the Ice Queen goes immediately on this space. She’s got all her power there (strength 12, craft 12 and 4 lives). She fights and stays there until she dies, or the character is killed and someone draws another Frostmarch adventure card.

7) When 50 tokens are present on the board, everybody lose the game. The Ice Queen win!

Now, I need to make some nice ice tokens.

Some details you're working with have been tried in variations. Certainly you and yours should do whatever you want. But since you posted here for review (I assume)...

Keep in mind that most players groups focused on commercial way of play aren't going to go for this. They have tunnel vision for the pure and continuously accelerated "race" emphasis of the game and don't care about much else. So....

mrjoebanana said:

The problem here is that the more Adventure decks grow, the less often a Frostmarch card with come up. Bigger the adventure deck, weaker the influence of the Ice Queen. Most players will not want to filter out any cards from other expansions, but unless Frostmarch is used with only the base deck, the token approach will likely have little effect in a game. Simple ration and probabilities vs. average number of turns will prove this. It produces an end game that is too easy to win and overall becomes boring. I know, because I've tried it.

Additionally, I would think that the token would come into play if the Enemy isn't defeated, hence establishing territory for the I.Q.... just a notion.

mrjoebanana said:

This runs the risk of two problems: build up and trophy value.

The build up issue is that the more tokens get loaded on a space, the more difficult it is to defeat an enemy there. If it is a multi-draw space, then every Enemy drawn there is affected, and if they can combine, the potency of opponent(s) in combat grows semi-geometrically. Of course, if the group in question is using all expansions, likely their not going to see any spaces get more than one token if any. But If multiple ones occur on one space in the Outer Region, it becomes problematic for beginning characters early in the game.

The Trophy problem is how much is an Enemy worth that was defeated on Frost-token space? If more than one Frost-token was there, so much the worse, and you average player will whine that the battle they fought was harder than the trophy value reflects.

Two solutions have been discussed by some groups: 1) only one token can be played on any space, or 2) if multiple tokes are allowed, some additional mechanic (through effort and/or scarifice) must allow characters to eliminate a token on a space. The issue with the trophy value cannot be solved because the only way to account the value of an elevated Enemy is to take the frost token with it if it is defeated... and I figure you don't want that (though there is a way that it could used for some additional spice in the game).

mrjoebanana said:

I think this is fine, but some groups won't... since I've seen similar done before. The two common complaints were...

1. too many rolls if and when the conditions trigger them (mostly from commercial card players).
2. too random a result (from fan card players). The Ice Queen in her own quest to dominate the land would be more focused on powerful characters and not bother with the wimps. (Which in turn keeps beginning players from being pounded on too much.)

Don't have a suggestion for the first complain, because I think it is lame. As to the second, you should consider a trigger roll based on how potent the character is. This is usually easiest to rate based on the highest of its Strength or Craft - or use both. One option might be to total both Strength and Craft together, then roll two dice. If the result is less than the total, the Ice Queen comes for you! There's a chance no matter what that she comes for a character, but it makes her more "cunning" in focusing on those who are the greatest threat to her.

mrjoebanana said:

Mid-move encounters have been done before as well. I tried them myself and response from my three different international test groups (all hardcore fan card players) was not good, to put it politely. It creates too many glitches for having two encounters by the standard rules of order of activity in whether on not a move is finished. And in most cases, the characters simply more the other way around the board; few if any cross the "Obstacle" that must be overcome to finish they're move, making it pointless.

mrjoebanana said:

My inclination (and that of others) would be that she games a bonus in combat for every token still on the board. With some of the other suggestions above, this also requires a mechanic for removing frost tokens during the game. Characters must not only compete against each other but also consider that every token someone else leaves on the board will affect its chance of winning as well. Strange little alliances and betrayals may pop up. Towards the end of the game, the character in the lead will want all frost tokens gone, while other may want them on the board so the leader has a hard time of it. Maybe that leader goes down and has to retreat, and another character makes a run for it... perhaps only then taking out a few frost tokens along the way.

mrjoebanana said:

I would hope 50 would never pop up. All mechanics aside, that would be a chaotic mess on the board. I would also suggest that cards be used in place of tokens. There are number of mechanics already built into the game, such as spells, for removing "cards" from the board. You might as well built components that take advantage of what's already in the game.

I look forward to seeing what you decide upon.

And last, here are some graphics slapped together that you may find useful. The cards are displayed smaller than they are; right-click and save/view to see the 300ppi versions. The Token is 3/4 inch at 300dpi; if printed on label or adhesive paper, and then trimmed to 5/8 inch, the background with have full bleed to all edges. You can simply print / assemble any of these with the same image on both sides. Do with them as you please.

Thank you JC for your time and your great review!
And thank you for the cards and tokens. That’s exactly what I was looking for.

I should have precised that I haven’t tried this rules yet. So it’s great to hear suggestions before I see that something is broken. So, I want an Ice Queen expansion with the two following things:

-Token (or cards) used to represent the advance of the Frostmatch everytime someone draws a Frostmarch Adventure card.
-A usefull Ice queen mini. (That’s what I don’t like in the Talismanisland rules: it could be played without the mini).

So I came with the preceding rules. But I’m not very experienced. So every suggestion is welcome.

JCHendee said:

Ok, that’s not very important. I don’t hope that all Talisman players use these rules. And I don’t intend to use it in every game. It’s just for a specific “Frostmarch game” from time to time.

JCHendee said:

I intend to use only the Core game, the Reaper and the Frostmarch cards with these “Ice queen rules”. So you get one Frostmarch card for every three adventure card you draw. Is it really too low? Do you know how many cards we draw on average in a (race) game ?
About filtering, you’re right it could be a problem in the future.

JCHendee said:

I don’t care about the whining part. After all, there’s many fights in this game where you don’t get a trophy at all.
But you’re right, build up could be a real issue. So I’ve got another suggestion (inspired by yours): only one token can be played in any space. When you draw a Frostmarch card in a space with a token, put a token in the next free space.
Then, players lose the game when the 40 spaces of the board (middle and inner region) have a token.

JCHendee said:

I just love this suggestion. I will use it, it’s way better like that. Thank you again.

JCHendee said:

Ok, I understand that problem. So what do you think about this:
When a character attemps to cross the Ice Queen square, total both Strength and Craft of this character together, then roll two dice. If the result is less than the total, the Ice Queen freeze the character: he loses one life or one craft. Whatever the result, the character must continue his move.

JCHendee said:

Maybe something like that would be good for the final fight?

10 tokens or less: 9/9 and 3lives
15 tokens: 10/10 and 3 lives
20 tokens: 11/11 and 4 lives
25 tokens: 12/12 and 4 lives
30 tokens: 13/13 and 5 lives
35 tokens: 14/14 and 5 lives

And here’s my suggestion for the mechanic for removing frost tokens: we could get a magic object after completing a Warlock quest, some sort of “fire talisman”. Then, when you go on a space with a token, you can choose to try to remove the token instead of drawing an adventure card or encountering the space. Roll 3 dice: if the result is less than your strength or your craft, you remove the token. You can keep it with you: it’s a trophy with a value of 5. If the result is more than both your strength and your craft, you lose one life.

mrjoebanana said:

Hmm... the ratio you mention actually sounds pretty good. I don't know exact counts of cards drawn in a game. My wife and I play alone for the most part these days.

ASIDE: My major crew shares out purchase of expansions for testing purposes, then anyone in the group who likes a particular one buys it as well. We personally own the bass game, the dungeon, and the highlands. The Reaper itself is NOT popular in our group, and there's only two Frostmarchs among our core of 7.

My personal deck is about 200+, comprising the core game and my ITB expansion... and now some additional cards from the Highlands and Dungeon. When its just Barb and I, we go through about half the deck just playing the main board. When using Dungeon and/or Highlands, even less. So as you see, it's not just the size of the Adventure deck that determines how often a Frostmarch card comes up if that expansion were used. Number of players and number of other "encounter" decks will also affect the draws. Perhaps in the end some additional "frosty" cards for the Dungeon and Highlands would help as well... but that can be faced later on as something extra.

mrjoebanana said:

That seems workable. But what you've mentioned about the ratio, and considering that many groups would play this with the Highlands and Dungeon, it might be okay to let tokens double and triple up on the same space. Might make the characters have to play some of those temporary alliances. Hard to say now that we've delved further into it.

mrjoebanana said:

Hmmm... that's a little harsh as an automatic loss just for the test, and would then whittle down higher players, making the game a bit longer for some. Of course players will then avoid "crossing" the Ice queen even more. How about a combination? Use your original combat approach with the Ice Queen, but only have her attack if the test roll fails? Just a thought if you really want to have a "crossing the queen" mechanic.

Oh bother... maybe that's just too many rolls for most players.

mrjoebanana said:

Seems fine to me, though might be tricky to list all of your Ice Queens mechanics on one AltEnd card.

mrjoebanana said:

Interesting, but it sparks another notion for what's already built into the game....

Anyone with a Talisman, after successfully getting through all encounters on a "frosted" space, may attempt to remove a frost token... and having an actual Talisman is what makes it possible. (Considering how expansion boards have rather neutered that core component of the game, it might be nice to give a Talisman itself an actual use.) Roll 3D6 below combined Craft and Strength... and then as you said. OPTION: You may add 1 to your combined Strength/Craft for each Spell that you discard.

Again, I'm just spitballing here. You should decide all the remaining details for yourself, and if I can help out with a component or something, let me know.

I like this notion of the land turning a bit frosty! Anything to give us an actual game "scenario" instead of just another AltEnd or EndBoss. (Was very disappointed with the AltEnds in the Highlands.)

Nice to see a new idea for use with the Ice Queen!

I shall comment more when I have a chance to look it over thoroughly. In the mean time, the use of tokens reminded me of a News feature for The Frozen Wastes expansion for Runebound.

How low can they go?

Nice, Jon! By the by, anyone know of a notion or gadget for cleanly cutting round tokes of appropriate size. If so, do share! Might be useful for extra Fate tokens as well. I have considered a sheet of round white labels and then positioning token graphics with a bleed over. Two could be peeled and adhere to an appropriate size coin, poker chip, tiddliwink, whatever... I suppose.

I realised I made a mistake: when you cross the queen and fail the roll, you lose one live or one fate. Is it too harsh again?

Your Talisman suggestion for removing token is good. I will use it.

So at the moment, here’s the rules:

1) This expansion is meant to be played with the 84 Frostmarch adventure cards and about 200 other adventure cards of your choice. (I intend to play it with the core game and the Reaper).

2) Tokens are used to represent the advance of the Frostmarch. Everytime you draw a Frostmarch Adventure card, you put a token on the space at the end of your turn. Only one token can be played in any space. When you draw a Frostmarch card in a space with a token, put a token in the next free space.

Option: if you use the highland expansion, put a token in a space everytime you draw an enemy. (There’s about 50 enemies in a deck of 142 cards). When there’s a token on a highland space and you get another one, the new token must be placed on the next free highland square or in the next free outer or middle region square if all the highlands square are occupied.

No ice and snow in the dungeon: it’s the only “safe” place on the board. (The Ice Queen wants to take over the whole land before confronting the Lord of Darkness).

3) When a token is present in a space and you draw an Enemy from the Frostmarch adventure card, add 1 to the Craft or Strength of this enemy. (In the highlands, add 1 to the Craft or Strength of any enemy when a token is present).

4) Everytime you move on a square with a token, after encountering the space, total both Strength and Craft of your character together, then roll two dice. If the result is less than the total, the Ice Queen comes for you! Roll another die, consult the chart on the Ice Queen’s card (from Talismanisland), read out the result and put the Ice Queen mini on your space.

5) The Ice Queen may cast an ice spell when a character attempts to cross her square. When a character attemps to cross the Ice Queen square, total both Strength and Craft of this character together, then roll two dice. If the result is less than the total, the Ice Queen freezes the character: he loses one life or one fate. Whatever the result, the character must continue his move.

6) When you get a Talisman, you can try to remove some frost token. When you go on a space with a token, you can choose to try to remove the token instead of drawing an adventure card or encountering the space. You can’t try this when there’s an enemy on the space. Roll 3 dice: if the result is less than your strength or your craft, you remove the token. You can keep it with you: it’s a trophy with a value of 5. If the result is more than both your strength and your craft, you lose one life. You may add 1 to your combined Strength/Craft for each Spell that you discard.

7) When a character reaches the Crown of Command, the Ice Queen goes immediately on this space. Her power depends on the number of tokens on the board:

10 tokens or less: 9/9 and 3lives
15 tokens: 10/10 and 3 lives
20 tokens: 11/11 and 4 lives
25 tokens: 12/12 and 4 lives
30 tokens: 13/13 and 5 lives
35 tokens: 14/14 and 5 lives
40 tokens and more: 15/15 and 6 lives

The ice Queen fights and stays there until she dies, or the character is killed and someone draws another Frostmarch adventure card.

8) Players lose the game when the 40 spaces of the board (middle and outer region) have a token. The Ice Queen win!

Now, I’m open to every suggestion.

Another thing: I would like to make 6 new Frostmarch adventure cards:
2 “magic fire swords or axes” : + 1 strength on battle and enemy doesn’t get +1 for battle when there’s a token on a space
2 “magic fire wand”: +1 craft on on psychic battle and enemy doesn’t get +1 for psychic battle when there’s a token on a space.
2 followers: you can substract 1 when you try to remove a token.

I will think about it more thoroughly, but maybe you have some ideas?

talismanisland said:

Very great tokens, thank you!

Looks like you've got I worked out. I might've done some differently, but everything appears to work as I can see. Perhaps you Followers and Weapons could have a touch of something to make them also blend well into a main game when not playing this scenario.

Here's a bit of an adaption of something I had lying around; it can be tweaked even more if you like. I'll keep my eyes out for other stuff you might find useful, as mentioned. Right-click and save/view for 300ppi version.

I like this.

But why not split the threats between the Ice Queen, Lord of Darkness and the Eagle King. So during a game all three are trying to take the land.

Maybe that can be a (or the only way) other tokens can be removed.

I'm not sure I follow you on this one. Do you mean the LoD and EK are on the move as NPCs? That might be overkill... or is there something else you have in mind?

Sorry I was vague. Here are the rules I was thinking about. I simplified it alot.

Whenever you draw a event card you must place a token on the space you encountered it at the end of your turn. One token per space if a space already has a token you must place it on the next free space.

All enemies encountered at the space with a token double the strength or craft.

Players can remove a token if they have a talisman and are on a space with a token without a enemy present.

For each token in the Outer or Middle Region the Ice Queen ending gains +1 attack strength.

For each token are in the Dungeon the Lord of Darkness gains +1 attack strength.

For each token are in the Highlands the Eagle King ending and enemy gains +1 attack strength.

Using the Ice Queen model.

Use the card as normal but each time a token is placed on the board in any region the Ice Queen moves just like The Reaper. If the Ice Queen lands in a character they roll on the Ice Queen chart. If the queen lands on a space with a token add another one right away. If the Ice Queen or The Reaper land on each other move The Reaper as if they just encountered the moving player and a 5 was rolled on the Reapers chart.

There is no effect if a character lands on the Ice Queen.

Trying it out

Uvatha said:

Too much. I'm known around here for liking a long and rough game, but sensible just the same. That much potency for 1 token would immediately turn me away. I know it wouldl for even the hardcore players in my group. Tokens giving +1 to Enemies is better - and then even the possibility of multiple tokens on a space might be acceptable to some players.

Uvatha said:

I could see this as an option for some groups, but it blends together too many personas for my taste. I seriously doubt the Ice Queen, in pursuit of dominance, would share any power with those other two.

Uvatha said:

All sounds fine as Options. If you write this up for public distribution, write the core rules as if the players have only the base game and Jon's Ice Queen. Then separate write optional rules for using the Dungeon, the Highlands, and the Reaper, showing how each separately interacts when used in your Ice Queen scenario.

I'd stick with a token giving an Enemy or group of Enemies a +1 to stats. You don't want things to get too powerful too quickly.

Cool discussion.

Fixed up the ruleset now.

Whenever you draw a event card in the Middle or Outer region you must place a token on the space you encountered it at the end of your turn. One token per space if a space already has a token you must place it on the next free space (players choice). In the Dungeon region a token is placed for every enemy dungeon card drawn in the region. In the Highlands a token is placed for every trinket drawn in the region.

All enemies in the same region gain +1 attack strength.

Players can remove a token if they have a talisman and are on a space with a token without a enemy present.

For each token in the Outer or Middle Region the Ice Queen ending gains +1 attack strength.

For each token in the Highlands the Eagle King ending gains +1 attack strength.

Using the Ice Queen model.

Use the card as normal but each time a token is placed on the board in any region the Ice Queen moves just like The Reaper. If the Ice Queen lands in a character they roll on the Ice Queen chart. If the queen lands on a space with a token add another one right away. If the Ice Queen or The Reaper land on each other move The Reaper as if they just encountered the moving player and a 5 was rolled on the Reapers chart.

There is no effect if a character lands on the Ice Queen.

That all seems pretty clear... time to put it to the test!

JCHendee said:

Have done. The game gets very interesting indeed.

The only thing is removing tokens, looking at changing the ruleset to make it better. Something like remove a token at start of turn if you roll a 'number' other than talisman or complete a quest to remove a few?

Hmmm... and what roll would be used? After some testing, if you find it is too hard to remove tokens, you might consider having multiple ways of doing so vs. just making one way that is easier. Multiple but challenging ways would give more characters more options to stem the tide of the frost without making it overly easy in any one method. Just a thought.