Hi

here is the problem. What if a GM allowed the player to make a high (rank six) level character for the game with everything he wants withouth GM looking at the sheet?

Due to a contract I did something like this (im still learning the mechanics but wh40k and rpg genre is my bread and butter) and after few sessions I realized that my player brings with him power armor pretorian dudes with custom made no-friendly fire bolters, sevitors with assault cannons and all knowing(i hope not) deus ex machina wise man from dark heresy books. As for the other players , one is a total nooby and he has a premade Navigator based on his own concept and the third a newcomer who is a human calculator/mid-max/powergamer that started to make very advanced builds after 3 days of holding the book.

We play a custom "Into the Maw" adventure as I test how far me and the players can go with the mindrape and horror of WH40k world. With every game I feel more and more ashamed with the nearly suicidle battles(as I percieve them) that the Explorers seem to win with minimum damage(I also had some isues with the RT demo and its infamous boss battle). Once they fooled me while training with the space battle system and took for themselves a 2nd ship with a powerful assault force. Durring the last gme I went totally nuts and put 72 primitive orks , a 16m acid spiting troll like creature againts 8 pretorian dudes, 2 servitors and 2 explorers in a mass combat scenario. I smiled at how the players were frightened while they did the math. It didn't took much time to change my grin into OMG shape when I heard of 4 dead pretorians and a total massacre of the orks. I fear of the futere and the shadow of this third very keen on rules and builds player. My worries reach even so far that Im considering leaving the game as I fail to deliver a proper combat challenge that wouldn't look like retalitation for the previous failures(fluff and skill challenges are my speciality and so far I had little troubles with it).

Can you give me some advice on what kind of scale you use to tackle the most powerful builds of characters and their forces?

Grandmikus said:

Well, that sounds like an interesting problem you've got there.

1. ALWAYS look over any proposed character carefully even when you were there for the whole of the character creation process.
2. What exactly do you mean "due to a contract?"
3. Drop the game, or tell your player(s) that you are done with your "rules testing" and that you're ready to begin for real. They can all make new characters and build up to what they seem to want, or they can leave; likely in a huff.

Honestly, if you're not happy with how the player(s) seem to be browbeating you and your game into a cheese-tastic munchkin fest, pull up stakes and leave them, or tell them it's time to play like grown ups and not little kids who feel the need for self-aggrandizement at the expense of others' enjoyment.

You run a game so people can have fun. That includes YOU. When it stops being fun for you, then it is time to address the issues and/or stop.

-=Brother Praetus=-

I'm not entirely sure what level of GMing experience you have, so some of this may be elementary to you, but I'll throw it out there anyway. Several things come to mind.

1: Buy Ascension. I guarentee you, even a forct capable of destroying six dozen orks will piss their pants if you send them against Marabas. This is probably the easiest solution. It also could be used as a starting point for creating some own insamely powerful opponents of your own.

2: A few general pieces of advice on planning encounters.

-If you want them to be challenging, look at the players weaknesses, then create or choose enemies to counter them. Particularly if the enemies have an recurring nemesis, it makes sense to use forces well suited to counter a specific kind of threat.

-Don't be afraid to create individuals with abilities on-par with the PC's. They're not the only highly-trained explorers in the expanse. Having a few, particularly deadly adversaries can be more challenging than huge numbers of mooks. Grab Final Sanction and pit them against some space marines, for example.

-When running smaller encounters, play the bad guys smart. They should use the environment to their advantage, make wise tactical decisions, and come to a fight prepared. If they're expecting a fight, might they have some heavy-weapons teams on standby for support?

3: Finally, remember that you CAN create a combat challenge for your PC's that they can't survive. That's not hard. If you want to kill them, you can send an entire chapter of chaos space marines. Or a titan. Or twenty seven lictors, whatever. The real challenge is balancing, and that will become easier the more combats you run. Don't stress if it doesn't come right away.

Oh, and one mort note. If you don't want your PC's to have another ship, don't let them. Your PC's should never get to trick you into having anything. You're the boss.

Finally, I'd be interested to see the stats of your PC's. If you posted them, I'd take a look and try to offer you some more specific ideas.

ok first thing first ... the other ship needs to dock somewhere have its machine spirit tamed and made sure that the previous own wasnt a follower of chaos, then it needs its licencing credetials changed so it officially belongs to the explorers this could take up to 10 maybe 15 years during which time the ship must stay in dock ... i know its cheeky but very effective and as for you power gamed characters i have run ito a smilliar problem so i took the classes in the party and trawled through the book until it was broken then sent them against harder versions of themselves and their ship and TPKed them they played sensible after that if you want a look and some ridiculously powerful character to pit them against i have a navigator that can deal out 2d10 +27 points of energy damage a hit with 4 hits a turn hand he will always get to go first plus his friends if you want the game legal stats?

addendum or if you dont want to take that route give them less combat and more brain based role play as RT is not a hack and slash game

I agree with Inquisitor Darksouls second post. It's hard not to build a rogue trader character who kicks serious ass. If the players are enjoying being the uber badasses of Koronus then let them wallow in it for a while. Its easy for a rogue trader to annihilate xenos and renegades but what happens when he finds himself competing with other RTs, Inquisitors, planetary and sector governors and even crime lords for his objectives.

Get political on their asses. Give them mysteries and intrigue. Maybe their combat skills mean there presence is demanded by an Ordo Xenos luminary who has a xeno infestaion to root out. Sure they can refuse but this chap can make their lives difficult.

Give them some situations where responding with violence is a bad move - ruining trade deals, starting borde wars, wrecking treaties bringing worlds into the Imperium.

On a more serious note we can all come on and give lots of ideas for scenarios and hooks and opponents that may give you a fix but there is no substitute for communication. if you are not enjoying the game then something needs to change. Have a chat and find out what your players expectations are and don't be afraid to let them know yours. It doesn't need to be a big confrontation - just a feedback session - but it can be very beneficial to talk through these issues. Sometimes peoples playstyles are fundamentally incompatible and the earlier you find out if that's the case the less time you spend having anti-fun.

One of my players was relatively unfamiliar with the 40k universe when we started playing. After a few weeks he turned to me and said

'It seems like we are all really good at killing everything but that we have no idea who or what we should be fighting.'

He's playing a missionary...

That to me sums up 40k quite nicely. Good Luck

I largely agree with what has already been said, but here are a few of my own thoughts:

If your group likes power characters...thats ok. RT is built for uber characters, its part of the fun, you just need to get used to the system. Once you are you are not going to have a hard time making challenging encounters.

It sounds like you are having scale shock, which is very common in RT. RT plays on a different level than most RPGs. It isn't about a small group of powerful people taking on the world, it is about a dynasty that can crush worlds taking on the Galaxy. So what if they have 2 ships? Or 10? There are empires out there for them to take on.

What does it matter if one or two characters are super killing machines? Don't forget the system allows them to have militaries complete with entire platoons, tank squadrons, and planet busting weaponry!

They will have to face empires, system spanning cults, crime syndicates more powerful than most xeno empires, chaos wolds, and craftworlds!

Don't sweat it if they can kill 20 orks.

Not all dangerous situations need to be of the combat variety. Trapped installations, geologically unstable terrain (complete with lava!), crevases, deathworlds, and alien landscapes galore await our intrepid adventurers!

And don't rely on combat to make sessions fun and challenging! There are diplomatic situations to resolve, hostage situations, unstable acheotech, planetary uprisings, lost love ones, betrayals, tough moral choices, etc.

In conclusion; 1) It's ok, your having scale shock, you will get used to the extreme levels of power 2) your games should probably have a lot more to them than combat. You get better combat from video games, RPGs allow you to make interesting choices. Focus on that.

Everyone seems to be assuming that the games the OP is running are pure combat. He mentions in his post that he is not having any problem with skill/fluff challenges, which, I assume, means that he's including them, and just wants to make the portions of his game that is combat measure up.

Also, about the third player, is he a good role-player in addition to being a rules savant? (Like me!) Or is he only interested in combining the rules in the most beenficial way, regardless of the results?

I run what has become a rather combat heavy game and one thing which I have found to be VERY useful in balancing any combat encounter is chaos and psionics. Basically unsanctioned psykers can do a lot of things, sorcerers can do even more, attacks that bypass armor, that attack their mind, the earth around them, force their bodyguards to attack them, all these things and more are there. I am not saying it can fix everything but it can stop your party from waltzing in over everything and give them a moment of pause. For a example the part at one point had about 50 space marines at their disposal for the clearing of a research base, they had killed most of the nasties easy mutants and the like till they hit a room with a psyker one holocaust later and there are 13 less marines. Things went down hill from there. Also if the psyker is getting too bad one bad roll from them can make the psyker go away avoiding tpk.

And never forget posession is always a risk,

Another tactic to if players build their characters too powerfully... They may end up on the recruiting list for a chaos faction.

A great rogue trader may find Slaanesh or Tzeentch trying to recruit him and his crew. They may not even know that they are being recruited. Over time, the things they do start to build up corruption points and eventually they are now powerful NPC's facing off against the new characters of the players.

Give them enough rope to hang themselves and see where it goes.

I'd definitely go for Brother Praetus's third option. Ditch the munchin character. Start over with decent characters that have at least some growth capability. It's just nto funa fter a while if you start of with a characted that already has everyy bonus possible, a retinue of high-level uber soldiers, every bonus and skill calculated and tweaked to the max... playing like that gets old really fast.

I'm sure that ALL players (even the ones that will grumble at first) will appreciate it more when they feel and know that their überness came from epic adventures played, contacts made, adversaries defeated, treasures hoarded and rewards earned.

I've got a Hades Pattern Basilisk statted up if you just need someones arse destroyed as completely as possible?

I agree with the option of starting over with rank 1 characters. Maybe not even let them have a ship at first, they must earn that as well!

MKX said:

those stats you metioned..... could i maybe have them please