I've started a process of calculating ammo weights for the guns in Dark Heresy with one of my players, to replace the current system of 10% weapon weight as it creates contradictions like identical shotgun shells weighing wildly different amounts. For the magazines we are using 40% of the weight of the ammo that they are meant to hold as apparently that is a fairly good approximation of the weight of magazines. The magazine weights have been rounded in many cases to make calculation of overall weight easier.

The long-term goal is to have an ammo weight for every gun up on the main site of Dark Reign so that it’s a simple case of looking it up but I think giving my reasoning for the weights allows for constructive criticism. All of this is subject to change.

When using these weights the magazine is considered to by full until emptied, weight is considered constant during a combat encounter. GM’s should feel free to allow players to consolidate ammo as makes sense.

With all the different guns available for the SP class it can be tricky. For SP weapons the weights have been modelled off of real life rounds that we feel match the effect of the weapons they are meant to represent. No doubt people will disagree with my choices but bear in mind that the rounds have been chosen for their weight so complete accuracy is not required.

The standard autogun round should be used for any weapon that has 1d10+3 damage. For the standard autogun round we chose the 6.8mm SPC round as it is considered an intermediate round, I felt that the 5.56mm NATO round would represent an autogun with 1d10+2 damage and bigger rounds were either too heavy or too inaccurate.

This gave the autogun ammo the following characteristics.

Full Mag - 0.85kg
Magazine - 0.25kg
Single Round - 0.02kg
30 Rounds - 0.6kg

This is over double the weight of the autogun ammo given in Dark Heresy and in my opinion better represents the challenge of carrying ammo. It should also serve to give another balancing factor in favour of las weapons.

For the 15 round Armageddon pattern the 7.62mm NATO round was used to calculate weight as it is a heavy but powerful cartridge.

Full Mag - 0.5kg
Magazine - 0.125kg
Single Round - 0.025kg
15 Rounds - 0.375kg

This actually leads to reduction of weight for the standard Armageddon clip due to the fact that the Armageddon only has a 15 round clip and the gun itself weighs 8.5kg leading to absurdly heavy ammo for the Armageddon under the standard rules, over double the weight of standard autogun ammo for half the rounds.

SP pistols doing 1d10+3 damage were assumed to used the 9x19mm Parabellum. In the world of standardisation that the Imperium is so fond of we assumed that all pistols of the same damage were designed to use the same rounds.

Single Round - 0.013kg
9 Round Stub Auto Magazine - 0.043kg
9 Rounds - 0.117
9 Rounds in magazine - 0.16kg
6 Rounds - 0.078

The change here isn't much but the goal is more to create parity between the other weapons that use the same ammo like the Phobos which is itself lighter but whose ammo should be the same weight.

SP pistols doing 1d10+4 damage were assumed to use .45 ACP ammo. Weights to come.

For a lasgun we decided that 0.5kg was a fair weight for charge pack and laspistol 0.35kg. Since we had little real world evidence to base them on we went for something that would make sense for the background of 40k, we figured that the lasgun was a popular choice because for a lighter weight you got more shots. In the case of the pistol the charge pack is scaled down but they wouldn’t be too much smaller as they still need to generate enough power.

Since the lasing cavity will be more important than the power pack and the background states that power packs are interchangeable then only one weight is needed for the entire basic las and pistol las range.

Ok here is where things get controversial Bolt ammunition. Being very rough we came to a figure for Bolt ammo that we felt comfortable with, that said it is very heavy. In fact it’s so heavy you realise why a normal boltgun does not have a full auto setting.

Single Bolt – 0.125kg
24 Bolt rounds – 3kg
Boltgun Magazine – 1.2kg
Full Magazine – 4.2kg
8 Bolt Rounds – 1kg
8 Round Bolt pistol magazine – 0.4kg
8 Round full mag – 1.4kg
6 Bolt Rounds – 0.75kg
6 Round Bolt pistol magazine – 0.25kg
6 Round full mag – 1kg

Since I am guessing that a lot of people will not like these weights I suggest that if that is the case to half all of these weights. Personally I like the fact that bolt ammo weighs a tonne.

Plasma flasks were tricky as there is little to compare them to. In the end I used the weight of a small hydrogen container. The weights in the brackets are the empty weights.

Plasma Pistol
Primary Flask - 0.75kg (0.12kg)
Secondary Flask - 0.6kg (0.09kg)
Both - 1.35kg (0.21kg)

Plasma Gun
Primary Flask - 1.0kg (0.16kg)
Secondary Flask - 0.75kg (0.12kg)
Both - 1.75kg (0.28kg)

Kaihlik

I like this method. Ammunition weight is something that I have struggled with in my games because my players like to purchase and carry unreasonable amounts of ammunition, and I think it adds a lot to the drama of the game force players to choose between carrying extra ammo or extra equipment, and having to conserve ammo and running low at a critical time is excellent for building tension. I briefly used a method of asking the players how they actually stored the ammo on their bodies, but this method proved to be too abstract and easy to exploit.

Its probably fairly accurate of their weights, as someone whos trudged through some broken ass country with a camping pack, shotgun and more than 24 shells on a belt can testify... it gets appreciably very heavy by the end of the day!

this is very nice indeed! Do you happen to have this in an excelsheet?

I have not had to bother worrying about the mass of individual units of ammo so far (blessedly!) since about half of my group is ex-military and they have a rough and reasonable idea of what they would/could/should carry. Still, this is pretty cool! The team's Techpriest and combat cyborg are the current "human pack-mules" when the need arrises, and they don't usually pile on too badly.

There is a real "humping it" factor to any real world gear, although for DH it is my oppinion that you should be a little more forgiving as to what is "practical and comfortable" to carry, given the relatively greater bulk of Imperial gear and the "pain is your body's way of serving the Emperor" mentality that is so pervasive.

The differing weapon weights DOES lead to some amusing calculations using the full-mag = 10% of weapon mass formula. For example, my personal rifle is an AR15HB. It substantially outweighs my old service-issue M16A1 but they both use the same magazines and ammo (at least in theory. Yes, I KNOW military issue ammo is different from sporting/civilian ammo). The M16 is lighter weight, has a bayonet lug and the A1 model has full-auto, but just about every other feature of the heavy variant AR15 leads to greater performance (thus different "pattern" weapons in 40K). I'm a bit too tall to comfortably use the M4 due to it's collapsable buttstock, so I preffer my long, heavy accurate rifle...

A version 1 of pistol and basic SP weapons is on the way sometime soon. Las weapons are for the most part easy but there is still a few variants.

The magazine weights have been rounded to make the overall weights easier to work out. The problem is that this leads to the empty magazines having odd weights (as the bullets always weigh the same) in practice players will only measure the weight of the magazine to the nearest 10g or 100g depending on the GM. This system tends to have light weights for pistol ammo due to the low clip size or in the case of autopistols small light cartridges.

Autoguns tend to have heavier ammo because of their large numbers of heavy cartridges. Shotgun ammo got much lighter but that is mostly down to the very low number of shotgun shells in a shotgun. In most cases its best to work off of how many indidual shells you are carrying and just reduce weight at a conveniant point.

The massive change is to bolt weapons whose ammo is horrendously heavy. It should probably be noted that this system also turns heavy weapons into 2 man operations.

Kaihlik

HW's Should be 2 man operations. loader/feeder & gunner proper.

Unless you've got Suspensors and the rapid reload talent...

I know, I never said it was a bad change, just that people should be aware of it.

Kaihlik

Kaihlik said:

Sorta like Imperial Guard weapons teams you mean?

the only weapon I am familiar with weights normally 3,5 kg and with full clip 4,3 kg. That's about 23% increase. I prefer the basic rule of 10%

PnPgamer said:

I have always interpreted the weights given for weapons was fully loaded. Spare magazines would weigh the 10% of the weapons weight.

bah.... double post

My thoughts on this are to restrict what you can carry weapon and ammo wise going with bulk rather then weight Though weight obviously still factors in for total load. I based this primarily off of MK's DH revisions. As this method is more geared towards a strict upper limit on what you can reasonably carry in combat. Using a more hardpoint style with perhaps a little roleplaying of what is carried where. The limits imposed to prevent golf bagging an armory. While still allowing a wide range of combat options.

A character can have ready to draw slung or sheathed 2 basic or two handed close combat weapons or 1 heavy weapon, 2 pistol or one handed melee weapons, A knife/brassknuckles/shiv, 3 hand grenades and intelligence bonus in concealed small weapons such as a holdout laspistol or knife tucked in a boot or folded into a robe.

Ammo is based on having the weapon loaded and being able to normally carry only 3 reloads for that weapon. Where some weapons such as bows only carry one shot. Some leeway is provided by following another weapons magazine size. For example both the autogun and bow are basic weapons and the autogun has a 30 round magazine. ruling a bow or handbow draws from a quiver or boltcase carrying 30 arrows/bolts. Thus giving 31 shots total rather then magazine times 3. A blackhammer shotgun and its massive shells however would go off the max magazine for the combat shotgun. Finally certain weapons large weapons such as a heavy stubber would only get a single reload belt of ammo while a missile launcher would get 3 extra missiles.

Since this limits certain firearms considerably and takes into account a militant plainclothes rather then full combat gear. The following items are provided to allow extra reloads.

Gunslinger/Duelist belt. Carries room for an extra melee or pistol weapon (for 3 total) and 4 pistol reloads of any type. An abundant quality item

Ammo bearing gear. An abundant quality item representing anything from a stubber belt pack, a bandoleer strapped across the chest, an expanded quiver or something more exotic like Uriah Jacobs priestly vestments festooned with shotgun shells. This allows for extra reloads for a single weapon type doubling the amount of ammo reloads for that weapon. Only a single one may be worn and it only works with ammo (including special) for that weapon.

The combat rig from the inquisitors handbook. is a more modular version of above which can be configured to carry ammo from different weapons. however its not made for archaic, exotic, xeno or heavy weapons.It can carry weapon reloads for 3 basic and 2 pistol reload and/or grenades or an extra basic reload. Cannot be worn with ammo bearing gear and as. A good choice for lasgun/autogun Imperial Guard types but poor for a dedicated pistolier or Moriat assassin.

Of final importance is another feature of RPG shenanigans, the backpack storage space. Now this either precludes carrying additional ammo in a backpack as its assumed to be part of your readily available 3 reloads in side pouches or pockets. Else enforcing a weight limit plus action penalty for digging in the backpack during combat. However this will just mean players restock between combat if able. Bogging down play with counting clips and magazines to avoid in combat gotcha moments. Leave the backpack for dataslates, clothing and other misc gear.

I feel the option of fixed reloads speeds up play without having to worry about excessive amounts of bullet counting. While avoid some of the pitfalls of simulation play. While allowing some middleground in customizing your load out to fit both your players roleplaying and combat style.

I don't know if this helps but you might look up "Gyrojet" on wikipedia, these are real world prototypes of bolt tech (self propelled ammo). They are out of production since the 60's (having failed to impress the military after a few blunders). The fact that they exist though is pretty interesting and it gives some info on the caliber of the rockets and other interesting specs

Draconis13 said:

What would u do for a weapon Like the Spectre Assault Gun with 3mags in it to start, allow the PC to carry 9 mags? Plus shotgun ammo?

I fully agree, ammo in a backpack isn't regularly easy access, but I carry it to reload.

I would rule that since it has a fire selector it loads 3 magazines but like any other autogun it would have only 3 reload magazines. Which some or all could be special ammo. The single barrel shotgun however would have one reload of 8 extra shells like a pump action shotgun. Since its a secondary weapon one full reload of a larger magazine weapon of the same ammo type seems pretty appropriate.

180 autogun rounds and 9 shotgun shells basic load out is not too shabby. drop in a bandoleer full of special purpose shotgun shells for 24 more shotgun rounds. You could also pickup the webbing vest to carry extra autogun and shotgun ammo.

The fireselector could be ruled to count towards the 3 extra reload limit giving you 4 magazines total. Though you could just as easily give it the usual 3 spare mags. Since 60 shots per lasgun pack on average versus 30 odd shots per autogun mag means you will still have less ammo even with a fire selector. Same with stub automatics and autopistols.

Had a chat with some other folks about this. We came up with some optional or addendum rules to use for abstract ammo bearing rules.

Option to allow weapon slots you are not using be converted over to ammo for primary weapons. Such as if you do not have 2 basic weapons you may allocate the 3 reloads over to your only basic weapon and/or pistol. Like wise a pistol slot weapon may have its 3 reloads given to another pistol or be replaced with 1 basic reload.

Heavy weapon reloads are also on a case to case basis From what I earlier said carrying a single heavy weapons with pistol weapon. 1 heavy weapon and 1 belt or 3 drum reloads in the case of a heavy stubber seems fairly reasonable. But a missile launcher would perhaps get 3 extra missiles due to bulk. 2 lascannon batteries or 2-3 extra plasma cannon flasks would not be out of line as well.

Carbines and some smaller shotguns count as pistol slot or basic slot weapons. Thus a las carbine or some short pattern autoguns may replace a hip slot pistol allowing a character to trade the longer range of a carbine over the close combat potential of a pistol.

Backpacks having 6 points of reload slots. With 1 slot carrying a basic or pistol reload, 2 for any magazine deemed odd such as a quiver or grenade launcher drum and 3 for a heavy weapon reload. Getting stuff out of a pack is a full round to take off the pack and at least one hand must be free and another full action to get the item out and in hand. As well a final full action to get the backpack back on.

Backpacks can be replaced by a number of weapon specific tanks or belt feeds. Such as hellgun capacitors, flamer and melta tanks or something more esoteric. I would go with the Macharian handbook which details those in depth especially for hellguns. As you lose backpack space for not just ammo the gain should be equal to roughly 8 reloads. Giving the basic flamer 24 shots without having to reload. At the expense of only being able to carry a limited amount of misc equipment.

If the idea of using extra equipment to simulate bandoleers and ammo belts does not appeal to you. You can apply the backpack rule to the characters themselves giving them either 4-6 points of extra ammo carrying capacity like the backpack. A further option of instead allowing them Strength Bonus in extra reloads with heavy weapons counting as 2 reloads. This of course will favor stronger characters.

Quality ideas for previous posts ammo bearing gear. As well each character should also have access to a free common quality one at character gen.

Gunslinger belts/shoulder rigs: Good quality holsters are universal for whatever pistol or ammo. Best allow a user with the quick draw talent the ability to holster a pistol, sword or other one handed weapon carried on it as a free action once per round

Bandoleers and other generic ammo gear: Good: gains 1 free slot for any basic or pistol reload or 1 grenade or 1 quickdraw item as weapon/gear storage. Best: The flexible design allows this setup to carry 3 points of any weapon reloads like a backpack by either expanding mesh pockets, adjustable straps or just ingenious construction.

Weapon/Gear storage: Good quality allow one item such as a rebreather, auspex, medkit or knife to be drawn or replaced via dummy cord/quick release pouch as a free action once per round. Best allow for either 2 such items rigged as per good quality. (As well the option to use the common quality universal slot for this)

The following is an example of a character geared with this slot style. Followed by comparing ammo weight tracking in simulation vs abstract styles.

Confesser Shanks carries as a basic weapons flamer and a pump action shotgun. His secondary weapons being a hammer and autopistol. As well 2 frag and 1 krak grenades Each gun with 3 reloads stored about his person.

As he is a militant sort he wears a good quality guard issue weapon storage rigging. With 2 flamer and 1 shotgun reload with 2 autopistol mags tucked into the extra slot. He has chosen to carry his medikit for quick access. His backpack contains 4 flamer and 2 shotgun reloads one being along with a couple ration packs, a dateslate and his good robe.

So all total he has 10 flamer fuel tanks 4 of which are normally not easily accessible. For 30 shots of fuel with a lot of reloading. His shotgun assuming its not a custom job with a fire selector has 8 total reloads for 64 shells some of which could be exotic ammo. His pistol has 6 mags for 108 shots. As well as 3 grenades, a warhammer and a small knife tucked into his belt

if we add up the above weapons and any basic equipment as well as armor. We can easily figure if he is inside his basic carry weight. Assuming he is average strength and toughness bonus 3 we get 36 KG as our max weight.

Using the base games ammo system 10 flamer tanks is a reasonably hefty 6kg as much as the flamer itself. We can either use this, Kaihlik's method of ammo calculation or possibly omit ammo weight entirely. The shotgun being 5kg and 4kg for ammo. The autopistol totals 3.75kg, his grenades 1.5 and 4kg for the hammer and .5kg for his knife. As well 2kg for his medikit and .5kg for a dataslate and finally 1kg for his weapon/gear storage webbing and 1 kg backpack.

Total is 35.25 kg for all his equipment and ammo minus any odds and ends such as a nice robe or foodstuffs. Though with so many weapons he will obviously be passing anything other then a single piece of mesh armor. 11.25 kg of this weight is strictly ammo for 2 basic weapons and 1 pistol. However if he was a ability bonus higher in both toughness and strength he would instead have 56k total. Allowing him to carry all this while wearing Storm trooper carapace armor.

If we remove having to worry about ammo weight. Instead of simulated tracking of each magazines weight as new gear or plot related items present themselves. We allow characters with more average scores to carry a reasonable full combat load while not being able to break the abstractions limit on maximum reloads and carried weapons. Thus the 11.25 kg of ammo would instead have to be used on 11kg of guard flak or a combination of lighter items and misc equipment. While lower and higher characteristic players will not have to worry about having to balance either too many reloads going over limit or being able to take insane amounts of ammo with decent armor.

In summation we replace simulated bean counting of ammo weight with a system of abstracted bulk. With ammo weight on the bottom end we see weaker characters struggling with a pistol and a basic weapon. Along with whatever misc equipment and armor. While a hulking character is able to not only carry a larger weapon but a arsenal of smaller one potentially. As well the idea of specialized gear itself to bolster ammo capacity. Replacing bandoleers and webbing rigs with free points of extra ammo capacity much like a backpack. Whatever fits your groups play style.

Since I cannot edit the above post for some reason. I recently tested and found the previous 3 reload per weapon system flawed. I instead devised an ammo point pool which is much more balanced then the previous one.

Each character has limited number of slots they may use to carry weapons as follows.
2 basic or two handed melee weapon OR 1 basic/two hand melee and 1 heavy weapon,
2 pistols and/or one handed melee weapons
1 one handed melee weapon
4 small weapons such as knives, powerblades or tiny pistols and/or grenades of any type
Intelligence bonus in concealable small weapons I.E knives and hold out laspistols.
(2 basic weapons slots one of which can be heavy?)

Carbines including some small shotguns can be placed in either a pistol or basic weapon slot.

A character may carry a maximum of 12 basic or pistol reloads, A character may replace 3 of these reloads for an odd weapon "ammo pool reload" such as a quiver of arrows or lead shot w/ powder horn or 3 reloads for 1 reload of a heavy weapon.

Thus a maximum reload capacity of 360 standard autogun shells, enough charge packs for 720 standard power lasgun shots, a full 4 belts of heavy stubber ammo or 12 missiles and nothing else. Obviously most players will take a mix of ammo rather then rely on a single firearm. As well ammo already loaded into the weapon does not count against reloads.

A character may replace reload points for small weapons 2 for 1 to get more grenades or other weapons. These extra weapons weight applies to max carry weight as normal.

If the above feels lacking. of the following options is provided for further ammo carrying capacity. Characters add Strength bonus to reload points. Another option is giving all characters 3-4 extra points regardless of strength. The final option is to allow for wearing of ammo bearing gear which increases available extra reloads on the basis of what type and its quality.

Some weapons have small magazine sizes such as double barrel shotguns they instead draw from an ammo pool of a reload size of comparable weapon of the same type. In this case the pump action shotguns 8 magazine size. A single shot grenade launcher would use the stock models 6 round magazine to determine its reloads. Other weapons such as the Bow or Handbow. Have no comparable weapon to go off of instead replace 3 reload slots with a single quiver or boltcase containing 30 rounds. As it can be assumed the arrows or bolts are bulky and provide the same number of shots as a autogun mag but take up more space. In each case the GM has the final say.

Cetain weapons have multiple ammo sources such as hellguns. They can either replace a backpack for X number of shots from a capacitors pool, use standard lasgun packs at a reduced capacity or finally banks of small buttpack capacitor which take up 3 reload points each.

Weapons using fire selectors allow 3 magazines to be loaded to the weapon without cutting into max carried reloads. However this makes the weapon heavier then before.

Heavy weapons are unique in this way as each has a different number of extra reloads which depend on its type. A heavy stubber using 100 round belts would have only 1 reload while one using 40 round drums would get 3 reloads(the same as a basic weapon). A missile launcher 3 reloads. Las, plas and melta cannons 2 reloads.

Exotic weapons usually behave much like a basic or pistol weapon but certain ones may have an ammo pool magazine.

Backpacks can carry 6 points of reloads in the same way as bonus reloads for high strength or basic point pool. Taking a backpack off or putting it on is a full action. Taking ammo or items from a removed backpack is a move action. Once you take ammo from a backpack you can reload as per normal actions. Characters should be assumed to replace carried ammo from a backpack between combat if permitted by narrative time. I.E. Not being chased through the underhive or other tense situations.
Good backpacks only take a move action to remove or don and Best are environment sealed. (other quality options such as good quality having a concealed cavity to smuggle items are possible)

A ammo backpack such as a flamer, plasma fuel tank provides 8 reloads (if not specified) of whatever weapon it is attached too. However such backpacks preclude carrying additional equipment in a standard backpack.

I have worked on this more but I cant upload it to this board, its on the last post of this thread if you want a look. darkreign40k.com/drjoomla/forum/index.php

Its not finished at all, I would completely reformat it if I had the time/energy and I would be aiming to bring the weight and cost of ammo into one document and rewrite a fair bit of the costs to make them more consistent across the various sources. There is also a couple of weapons in there from Rogue Trader that are there because they are relevant to my players.I have not gotten around to a fair number of weapons and would be interested in suggestions. I can explain my reasoning of anything you are unsure of why I set the values like that (plasma looks weird because you expect the fuel to weigh nothing compared to the container but its based off of an actual hydrogen container I found online).

If you have any other questions let me know.

Kaihlik