All three of these skills are available to a Tech Priest but I really can't see much use in having anything except Tech Use. Can anyone help me deliniate their usages in game?

Thanks

voidstate

voidstate said:

Tech-Use is the practical ability to operate machinery, often complex machinery. It assumes and requires understanding of the machine's purpose and function, at least to a degree.

Common Lore (Tech) is an understanding of the common prayers, rituals and invocations used in relation to machines. It doesn't inherently grant any ability to use machines. The skill is more concerned with understanding and interacting with the Cult of the Machine, than with the machines themselves.

Trade (Technomat) is somewhere between the two. A Technomat can operate, maintain and repair machines, but does so through rituals learned by rote - he knows what to do, but doesn't know why (Tech-Use doesn't have to be, but often is, accompanied by these rituals). Just as importantly, a skilled Technomat could even use the skill to improvise rituals for maintaining or repairing unfamiliar technology based on what he already knows.

A Tech-Priest working with those not of his order should really know all three skills - not just the practical side of things (Tech-Use), but the spiritual side of the priesthood to which be belongs (Common Lore (Tech)), and the ritualistic approach taught to those outside the priesthood (Trade (Technomat)).

It just seems like a much greater degree of redundancy than any other character class has to spend XP on. Especially the Trade (Technomat) skill.

I can't see many GMs refusing to allow a player to use Tech Use as a substiitute for the others, allowing the player to spend XP on other skills which broaden the Tech Priest's Abilities.

voidstate said:

Really, Trade (Technomat) is for those otherwise-unskilled NPCs who work on machines at the behest of the Priests of the Cult Mechanicus, so it's not hugely essential overall... but the other two don't exactly make each other redundant. It's like the difference between Scholastic Lore (Chymistry) and Chem-Use. One is practical skill, one is theoretical knowledge. That isn't redundancy, that's synergy - knowing one can benefit the other where appropriate (ie, at GM's discretion and with appropriate justification).

voidstate said:

I wouldn't allow it. It's equivalent to allowing a character to substitute Scholastic Lore (Tactica Imperialis) for a Ballistic Skill test, IMO - hardly appropriate. Tech-Use does not, in any way, shape or form, encompass the culture of the Adeptus Mechanicus. That's what Common Lore (Tech) and Forbidden Lore (Adeptus Mechanicus) cover, but they in turn don't give you any knowledge about how to actually use machines. The Lore skills' primary use is in roleplaying, but within that context, the skill is (IMO), invaluable and a must-have. Trying to negotiate with a Tech-Priest is rather difficult without that kind of knowledge...

I break it down as:

Common Lore (Tech): Recognition of what various tech objects are and the prayers associated with them.

Tech-Use: Repair and operation of unusual and/or damaged tech. Undamaged common tech items require no skill to operate.

Trade (Technomat): Maintenance of familiar functional tech. Use of unusual (alien/xeno) tech and repair of any non-functional/damaged tech requires Tech-Use. As a Trade, this can provide income.

My understanding is that Tech Use by itself does not give the ablitity to repair anything, it is a skill for USEING any technology that is currently functioning. Extremely common and easy to use tech (voxs, auspex, guns) does not require a roll, but everything else does (yes even data-slates, it's just a very easy check).

The importance ot Trade(Technomat) is that it is the knowledge of how to repair and maintain equipment which the character has no knowledge of why or how they work. Tech-Use could be used to operate a machine that the character has never encountered before, but Trade(Technomat) could not. Also Trade(Technomat) and Tech-Use can not be used to build anything from parts, that requires other trade skills like Trade(Armorer), (Wright), etc. Tech-Use would either grant a bonus to the Trade roll (or allow the use of advanced tools that grant a bonus) or be required for advanced Trades.

Common Lore (Tech) is not the knowledge of the Machine Cult, thats Common Lore (Machine Cult) and Forbidden Lore (Adeptus Mechanicus). CL (Tech) is basic knowledge of what technology is and the rituals associated with it. Its used, for example, to identify that a strange box with blinking lights and nobes is a cogitator, and that it is used for processing information. It could also allow a character to recognize if someone is not using the proper rituals for the machine they are using.

I would rule that CL (Tech) and Trade(Technomat) would be enough for someone to know the rituals for fairly common tech (like dataslates) and use those rituals by rote.

Common Lore (Tech) can give you information about the history or uses of a certain piece of technology. For example, you might know that the planet of X's atmosphere is maintained by terraforming engines, that the power armour the Guardians of the Holy Temple of St Drusus in Hive Y dates from the Angevin Crusades, or that the lasgun you found on the assassin's body was built on the Forge World of X. These are all things that a Tech Use skill would be useless for - it might tell you how to turn on the terraforming engines, but not that they existed, for example.

Trade (Technomat) is a problematic one, as it seems to be a lesser version of Tech Use. After some thought, I decided instead to rule that it was a more specialised form of Tech Use. As such, it can be used to repair, build and maintain mechanical technology at a lower difficulty than you would with Tech Use. I imagine it as the difference between an engineer (Tech Use) and a car mechanic (Technomat): the engineer could probably fix your car (Difficult Tech Use test), but it would be easier and faster for you to go to the mechanic (Routine Technomat test).

My understanding is that Tech Use by itself does not give the ablitity to repair anything, it is a skill for USEING any technology that is currently functioning.

The first line of Tech-Use (DH, page 108) directly refers to repairing items and the second full pragraph expands that out.

Happy Daze is right.

Tech Use is to use unusual technical kit, or standard kit in unusual situations.

Technomat Trade could be used to maintain technical item (keeping them working once they are working)

Common Lore Tech is the more "Spiritual" nature of tech, knowing the correct ritual to get the car to start on a cold morning when its spirits do not wish to get going :-)

I'd use Common Lore to give a bonus to the other two, with Tech Use to fix em and Technomat to keep em working.

Looks like a textbook example of rules-bloat to me.

Three poorly defined 'skills' with huge crossover and no clear meta-game or game implementation.

Ho hum...

Luddite said:

Exactly.

I think they could do with being re-defined to give each a clear purpose. Something like:

Tech Use
Allows the use of tech, often without the user truly understanding the underlying workings of the machine they're using. It involves knowing common rituals, prayers and ceremonial actions to make tech items function. (Note: I've made this into the skill for using without understanding because it is available to so many career paths)

Common Lore (Tech)
Used to understand the history of technological items, and to identify unfamiliar ones. GMs may require a Common Lore (Tech) roll to identify an item before a character can make a Tech Use roll.

Trade (Technomat)
Used to repair and create technological items. On most worlds, this skill is only taught to those trusted by the Adeptus Mechanicus, but there are always a few who tinker enough to work out the principals of repair themselves. Used with the Craft rules from the Inquisitor's Handbook to make tech items.

Now each actually has a reason to be bought by players.

What do you think?

There might be a theoretical explanation on the how and why of these three skills, but ofcourse that's no use for PCs asking for the practical in-game workings of these skills and what they should spend their hard-earned XP on. IMHO the Technomat skill is completely redundant. Maybe something for NPCs who lack the official knowledge of Tech-Priests and base their lore on what they gleaned from working machines in their daily life.

The Laughing God said:

I know. The only reason I can think of for a Tech Priest to have Trade (Technomat) is so they can teach subordinates with it. You can't even use it for crafting unlike ofher trade skills.

I've always considered it as such:

Tech Use: the ability to use Technology, though understanding is minimal. So a tech priest could easily turn on a computer, do a 40k google search without any knowledge of bits, graphics cards or hubs. Hivers get at basic and this reinforces that view.

Common Lore Tech: The knowledge of technology or rather the theorectical side of the above. So an example might be someone who understands the theory of internal combustion (as a matter of physics, maths and metallurgic lore) but wouldnt know to stick a spanner if he tried. This would also cover 'category' knowledge such as makes and models of weapons, vehicles and other tech artefacts.

Trade: Technomat:: We use this as the Craft skill. This is for when you want a Mr T character who can get his welding kit/lascutter out and make an armoured car (though he'd need Tech use to use the lascutter i dare say). This interpretation is heavily influenced by the Reclaimator background. Tech scavengers whose understanding of tech is limited (from a Mechanicus point of view), and probably have no geat knowledge of different types of atmospheric processors or whatever, but knows how to hotwire a car or how to bodge together a tool or something. Think Scrapheap Challenge with a PG certificate. I'm awarethat servitors can get this as well, but their knowledge would be programmed rather than internally comprehended, but the end resul is the same: the guy knows how to weld.

I'm pretty sure luke skywalker in a New Hope was a Reclaimator (and Nascent psyker but hey), and his build/repair/maintenace of C3P0 supports this. I doubt he had any knowledge of the positronic brain etc that 3p0 uses (ie little or no common lore tech), but the guy knows a droids left arm when he sees one...

I agree completely. In fact, I'm sure this is how the skills were intended but whoever wrote the Skills chapter got the wrong end of the stick.

All Trade skills allow build and repair except technomat? Huh?

From my understanding what a technomat "builds" are new rituals for maintain/using equipment. So the skill can be used to create a ritual for repairing any piece of tech, where other trade skill are only useful for a given type of tech. Technomats, and Reclaimators, don't build anything new, but they can use all the various tech widgets that they find.

The question I have is what are the limits on the use of Tech-Use to repair equipment, vehicals, etc? Because if it can do anything, why bother with Trade skills at all.

First of all: yep, an official statement on this matter would be nice!

My two cents:

About Technomat Skill:
I do not use "Technomat" as a broad skill but rather like the crafts skill (house rule!). For example, in my games a pc would be a "Technomat (Air Recycler)" or a "Technomat (Lifting Systems)" or a "Technomat (Ground Vehicles)". In his field of expertise, Technomat is a substitute for "Tech-Use" and for the "Common Lore(Tech)". But not for any other class of times and not for Pilot/Drive Skills. He might know how to keep the spirit of a walker appeased, but he does know nothing of directing it!

Usage/Identification of a common/simple tech-item:
No role needed. GM has final saying on what is "common/simple" to whom.

Usage/Identification of an uncommen technology:
Tech-Use or Common Lore

Usage of a tech item under unusual/hindering circumstances:
Tech Use

Background knowledge (manufacturer, date of first service/last service, etc.)
Common Lore

Repairing/Rigging a tech-item:
Tech-Use

monkyman said:

My point exactly. It seems to me that the repair/design aspect of Tech Use should be moved to a Trade skill (which covers repair/build in every other circumstance).

Coming a bit late to the party here. Isn't the idea that Common Lore (Tech) provides theoretical or historic information rather at odds with its status as a Common Lore rather than a Scholastic Lore? (Not that there is a scholastic lore skill for tech, which seems a bit of an oversight to me...) Similarly it isn't about the adeptus mechanicus, 'cause that's covered by Common Lore (Machine Cult).

I notice the description of common lore in the rulebook says "Use the common lore skill to recall the habits, institutions, traditions, public figures and superstitions of a particular world, cultural group, organisation or race." That suggests to me that it's used when observing someone using tech, to work out what they are doing, or similarly when using tech yourself, to successfully use the tech "like a native". This would be important especially on worlds where knowledge of tech outside the tech-priesthood is considered sinister and possibly the mark of a heretic or witch.

I think it's pretty hard to come up with an explanation of Technomat that isn't encompassed in some way by Tech-Use. It is Tech-Use for people who don't actually have access to the skill itself; and probably mainly used for background flavour than for game-mechanical benefit.

For me the distinction is:

Common Lore - "Hey that's a gun of some sort! Say a prayer and squeeze that thing to make it work! I think..."

Tech Use - "This is a standard issue autogun. Here we have the trigger which informs the spirits that we would like to hurt something. Keep these parts clean and well oiled and your prayers will be answered.

Technomat - "With these most sacred parts I can assemble a holy bolter with which to carry the word of the emperor to your enemies."

Reading the discussion about upgrading weapons on another thread, I've noticed that Trade (Armourer) is the appropriate trade for both armour and weapons. So presumably to avoid too much overlap, Technomat can't cover either of those - nor vehicles (Wright). So it looks like it's restricted to machines of a less military nature, gear (multi-keys etc).

Given that the crafting rules in the IH make it clear that Trade(whatever) is the appropriate skill for making and upgrading stuff, I'm beginning to see Tech-Use as a bit under-powered. It doesn't do crafting, it won't work on security systems presumably (that would be Security) or explosives (demolitions) or chemicals (Chem-Use). What do you use it for? Clearing a jam on a weapon? Operating a data-slate? Sadly, the IH, rather like the core rulebook, is almost completely silent on how Tech-Use works in practice.

Anyone got any ideas for items that tech-use would be needed to operate that aren't already covered by some other specific skill?

Cardinalsin said:

Clearing a jam on a weapon is a Ballistic Skill test (essentially, your proficiency with ranged weaponry; I expand that further by applying the non-proficiency penalty to BS tests to unjam guns)

Cardinalsin said:

Cogitators. Generators. Auspices. Vox-Casters. It's also used for repairing machines (as explained in the rulebook), handling machine-stored information, and essentially everything else that can be done with machines. Sometimes Tech-Use won't require a test (though it still requires the ability to test - much as reading and writing require you to have the Literacy skill, but don't necessarily require you to test against it - the mere ability to attempt the test is sufficient to succeed in many cases), such as operating a dataslate under normal circumstances (remembering that just reading from an already active dataslate isn't "using it"; trying to operate the controls is)... but if you're under fire, in the midst of an electrical storm, or dealing with damaged, ancient or unfamiliar technology, the test becomes a necessity.

Security doesn't just cover sophisticated security systems... it also covers lock-picking and similarly mundane techniques. As with Medicae Tests made to install Bionics, it stands to reason that possessing Tech-Use when trying to disable sophisticated security would be beneficial, even if Tech-Use isn't the skill being tested.

Demolitions covers the manufacture, placement and defusing of explosive devices... so the overlap is a matter of the timers, triggers and detonators more than the explosives themselves, and it might (at GM's discretion, like 95% of all skill tests) require Tech-Use to properly set or install a triggering device, depending on how complex it is.

I really don't see how Chem-Use overlaps with Tech-Use. Hydrochloric Acid isn't a machine, afterall. There are concievably situations when both apply, but the same can be said for any skill, and such overlap is helpful when designing or running adventures, as it means that distinct characters can contribute to situations without necessarily having to possess the same skills.