I read Brothers of the snake. It is post heresy as said, they are a successor chapter ).

Plus it is a really good and really shows different "tactics" ( larger combats/ a single SM ).

If you want to start with recruitment, Space Wolf and Space Marine is what you want to read.

If you want Space Marine Scouts, read Sons of Dorn.

If you want Space Maries, I'd recommend Brothers of the Snake, the Ultramarines Series, the Space Wolves series, Helsreach

If you want Deathwatch, there is no choice but reading Kill Squad. Not a brilliant read, but you'll survive it.

I have never seen a copy of Iron Hands.

from france

curious that in this post people like brother of the snakes. i can't recall which post burn down that book. i am one of those really against this book. i am fan of dan abnet except this book. he has so many critiques that after that abnett rewritte his idea about marines. his books in the horus heresy are superb.

but this one..... well even the kill ration against the dark eldar is not beliveable. on the solo mission the marines use a old dog to hunt and kil a dark eldar. not a wild breed for war dog no a old dog.

so i do not recomand this one. oh before you flame me remnber that it s just my opinions.

by the way miss dee always please to see you. you are so rare in this forum.

Wow, lots of opinions. I wound up getting Legends of the Space Marines I figure a short story collection would have a lot of variety as well as the Ultramarines trilogy not my favorite chapter, but it seemed to show up a lot in the thread.

Thanks for the suggestions! Already, the first story in LotSM brought up a Space Marine who believed himself a different specie than humanity, and looked down on them. That's not anything I had thought of, and sounds like great stuff to throw into a Deathwatch game to me.

"hanks for the suggestions! Already, the first story in LotSM brought up a Space Marine who believed himself a different specie than humanity, and looked down on them. That's not anything I had thought of, and sounds like great stuff to throw into a Deathwatch game to me."

If you are interested in that aspect of the marines mind you should read "Hellsreach" by Aaron Dembski Bowden, he does a great job picturing the mindset of the black templars.

The heroes of the Space Marines anthology has a short storie about a Deathwatch kill team in it, It is called Headhunted and is rather good. Good example of a type of mission the Deathwatch could go on, also some good tension between certain team members from different chapters

pandion40 said:

I hope they elaborate a bit on the different chapter's love and hate for each others. This is to me oen of the principal rp aspect of Death Watch, to see a Black raged Blood Angel assault marine being chastised by a black templar or a Dark Angel hunting down is friend tactical marine who as just succumbed to the wolfen curse.

Howabout the lion and the wolf before a deployment?

A squad of Marines meet in a tavern called the Lion and the Wolf...

Kage

no they go at it i think is in the SW codex... Men

Sorry, that was actually what I thought you meant. Couldn't get quite get the gist of what you actually meant from what you typed. No worries either way. Just a bit of (poor) humour.

Kage

kenshin138 said:

As my forum name is based on the Main Character form Brothers of the Snake let me give you a little background info. They are a second founding of the Ultramarines based on the the planet Ithaca. Thier fortress monastery is on a moon orbiting Ithaca named Karbdys but for the most part the Iron Snakes train on the Oceanic jungle world that sits below them. Other than that thier training is practically the the same as spartans they are excelent 1 on 1 fighters with Sea Lance (A Razor sharp spear that has a counter balance wight on the other end hinted they are made of adamantine though.) Combat Shield And boltgun. In a group they fight as one unit or a phalanx (an impenetrable shield wall where each brother protects the ones next to himself).

The most interesting part of the Iron Snakes is that they have no Companies but is instead made of 1000 marines that are 10 man squads where each squad adopts the doctrines of the first Seargent the squad ever had and the eqivalent to First company are the Squads known as the notables ( Skypio, Parthus, Veii, Thebes, and Damocles).

When a mission is called the chapter master does not chose randomly the squads that are sent. Instead they hold a drawing where squads that wish to participate put thier name in a chalice then out of those The chapter master picks the exact amount and which squads will be necesary to complete the mission even if it means as little as sending one marine.

Since you like Eisenhorn and Ravenor, Try Brothers of the Snake, It's Abnett and it gives a great overview of what space marines are about. Oh, and it's not C.S. Goto or Graham McNeil, which is a plus plus.

kenshin138 said:

This is a pretty good assessment but personally I'm Ok with Ben Counter's writings, I rather like the Soul Drinkers sage. But seriously, avoid CS GOTO at all costs. His books will make you frustrated and angry, not by design, but by abysmal narrative. Headache-inducing...

My personal favs:

The Ultramarines series ( I really brings the Ultramarines to life, a far cry from the 'generic' marines as they're usually described.

The Space Wolf series; great, great series.

Horus Heresy - all of them add interesting personas to Space Marines, as well as set a great backdrop.

Angels of Darkness by Gav Thorpe is a great novel about the Dark Angels.

Ciaphus Cain novels are very good if you want to know more of the Imperial Guard that will be in support of the DW at times, also a light humoured view of the Universe.

Dark Apostle is a fantastic grim read and you get a view of the Imperium from the forces of chaos.

In my view, the definitive book on Space Marines hasn't been written ...yet.

Eisenhorn/Ravenor present (thus far) the definitive Inquisitorial series, but there isn't really any book yet written on Space Marines that I would hand with confidence to a cynical outsider and say "Read this, it will change your view of 40k."

A lot of the books on Space Marines are pretty so-so, in my view. It's gotten to the stage where I prefer to buy 40k books that don't feature Marines.

Brothers of the Snake is fun but flawed. Ian Watson's old Space Marine book is well written but full of plot holes and implausibility. The best book thus far that features Space Marines in a major role is, in my view, Legion, but that's a Heresy era book.

You might be better off reading some of the heavy Forge World background books, as they present detailed and plausible accounts of Marine campaigns, with loads of background detail. The new Badab War one - which covers a huge Marine civil war - looks especially promising. They're a bit big to read on the train, though!

The best single books (not really novels, more like collected stories) are "Legends of the Space Marines" and "Brothers of the Snake". And if I had to pick one of the two, it would be BotS. "Legends" has a number of good stories about various Chapters, but "Brothers" is more satisfying overall.

Lightbringer said:

Well... this book would be - as recommended before by others - "Space Marine" by Ian Watson. Truth be told I haven't read too many W40k books so far (just those considered to be the best: Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Enforcer, etc.) but I seriously doubt anybody could top that novel and the Inquisiton War trilogy written by Mr. Watson.

Just my humble opinion of course.

Helsreach by ADB, Legends of SM, Heroes of SM, Fear the Alien

Lightbringer said:

Brothers of the Snake is a newish Dan Abnett book. I think you must have it mistaken with a different book.

Rather than tell you which books are "good" or "bad", I would suggest the following:

The C.S. Goto books give you the least useful information about the 'fluff'. There are numerous, numerous examples of things that are glaringly incorrect for the Warhammer 40,000 universe. I believe that the Black Library even instituted a stricter editorial regime after these books.

Space Marine, by Ian Watson, is the oldest Space Marine novel. Thus, while it contains a lot of very cool background information about the Adeptus Astartes and the Imperial Fists, it has also been contradicted a lot, in detail and in tone, by successive publications. Probably not a good first book, but an excellent book for completists (maybe the best, for completists).

The Soul Drinker series, and the Night Lords novels, as well as the Iron Warriors tales and the Word Bearers novels, all focus on Chaos Space Marines. For someone wanting to read a good SINGLE NOVEL, as in the original post, these would not be the best to pick, as they are chock full of information, but that information is not uniformly (or even substantially) applicable to the loyal Space Marines.

The entire Horus Heresy series is focused on events in the distant past of the Space Marines. For that reason alone, no book in this series would be particularly useful, as much of the information is several thousand years out of date.

Brothers of the Snake focuses on a non-codex chapter, as do the entire Space Wolf series. For someone wanting to read a single book to get a good feel of the average Space Marine, it would be more useful to read a novel about a Codex Chapter, as they represent the "baseline assumptions" of the Space Marines.

Hunt for Voldorius contains two chapters, but both the White Scars and the Raven Guard are divergent from the Codex in many aspects, and both are very different in bearing and manner. Helsreach focuses on another Chapter which is non-Codex, the Black Templars, and would similarly be a poor choice for a single book to read.

The Tome of Fire series focuses on the Salamanders, which, although a Codex Chapter, are unusual in their appearance, in their proclivities in battle, and in their attitudes towards normal humans (in that they normally live integrated among them). While Codex, this Chapter might not make the best choice for a single book to read about the Marines.

Sons of Dorn does focus on a strongly Codex chapter, the Imperial Fists, but focuses solely on the selection of aspirants and the process of becoming a Scout Marine. Thus, if you are interested in the behavior or capacities of normal marines (power armored guys in Tactical or Assault Squads, etc), it does not have the appropriate focus. In addition, the Deathwatch does not normally recruit inexperienced Marines, so a lot of the story is less useful for that reason.

Legends of the Space Marines is an anthology of Space Marine stories, so you will get a variety of information. For the same reason, Heroes of the Space Marines is appropriate. Technically, though, neither is a novel, and so can not be considered a "good single novel" to read.

Thus, I would recommend one of the following:

Nightbringer (being the first novel in the Ultramarines collection). The story is stand-alone, and focuses on THE codex Chapter, the Ultramarines.

Rynn's World. This focuses on a Codex Chapter, the Crimson Fists, and also details a lot of squad level action, appropriate to the Deathwatch.

These are not the "best novels", or anything. However, if you wanted to read a single novel to learn about Space Marines, I would say that either of these would give you a good basis. Overall, I would recommend Rynn's World, just because I think it covers more of the 'fundamentals'.

Brother-Sergeant Cloten said:

FFG partially draws on his works though too.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Well, I haven't noticed Marines using Multilasers, or tyranids being transformed into arachnids, or regular Tactical squads being equipped with Hellfire Rounds universally, or marines with adamantium armor, rather than ceramite, or any of the errors that I have seen in Goto's books.

I also haven't noticed FFG making the same sort of stylistic choices that Goto makes, such as Eldar Farseers who challenge the Deathwatch with a hearty "Bring it on!".

Has FFG game actually made use of Goto's works, or have they made use of the same resources he himself has made use of? I'm not being sarcastic; I genuinely don't know. I know that he wrote books about the Deathwatch, and the Mantis Warriors, but have they used things from those books that he himself created?

In any case, I will still stand by the contention that I would not recommend him for a single novel to read about Space Marines.

CS Goto, again, ... *brrrrr*

I usually finish what i start, be it a bad movie, episode, book etc etc. Y'know, just to be sure it's vad all teh way through or just a bad bit. But I'll never touch one of Goto's books again. His Eldar book is the ONLY book, ever, that I put down after one chapter and never, ever touched again. Oh my god, he gave me such a headache...

Goto, he surely is the Uwe Boll of the Black Library.... turning gold into lead wherever he goes...

[/RANT]