Dobbler's card is out and it is a big 'un to borrow a term for Invasion.

I'm in love. I can give up the flop for that. a first turn Westeros bleeds is now possible to make up for any flop differences. or heck valar first turn to even out the flops a little more and you are waaaay ahead. Add in the +2 init and you will be dictating the game from then on.

Thanks for the kind thoughts. Do keep in mind that someone running this agenda will be very susceptible to first turn Fear of Winter. I definitely don't think this Agenda is an autoinclude and players will seriously have to think about the ramifications of no-setup in an era where flops are very important.

Good, I've been wanting to build a wrath deck for a while now.All resets, all the time.~ No NPE there for my opponent in that.

you know....i'm not that worried about a first turn fear of winter.....I'm probably flipping valar or blockade first turn (and the other 2nd) and have 3 bleeds in my deck at 'half price'. if my one card is bay of ice I probably get a card out of it no matter what house i'm building.

I'm just dying for a lot of the 'control plots' to be +2 +2 +0. Fleeing is now 5 6 1, city of soldiers is 5 2 2 (whoa!!). City of sin 5 3 1, etc etc etc.

Lars said:

Keep in mind that you are giving up a lot more than your flop.

- If none of your other cards provide income bonuses, you are pretty much limiting yourself to plot gold (+2). That could make it hard for you to use "pay gold" effects and will likely limit your ability to use many Shadow cards.

- You will probably either need to go heavy on reducers or limit the amount of cards you play with a cost more than 3.

- It's an Agenda. You give up every other Agenda.

None of that may seem particularly bad, but it certainly does make the decision of whether to run this take more into consideration than "can I go without a flop?" I agree that it isn't an autoinclude. It may not even be a "usual include." It will be a huge part of certain decks, but it is by no means universal.

An incredible card. i think this changes the LCG metagame liek almost no other single card has done.

Not for every deck - but really, really strong. My mind is already reeling with the implications.

Now they need to bring the ambush dragons back.

ktom said:

1) eh...if I need to get shadows later in the game I either get one for free (w/ the +2 gold) or get a 5 gold plot to give me 2 for free. Plus shadows can be cheapened, have lots of S0 or don;t need to be relied on as much now becuase I can hit influence effects much much much more reliably. Oh and I get +2 initative too.....i'm still missing the downside.

2) Already do, and again we are only talking about the first turn or maybe the second turn...but I've opened up sooooo many more options in my deck that I can recover much more quickly. there are enough reducers in the game that I can live with plot gold +2 every turn. Without this agenda you can still have really bad first or second turns. You can still mulligan if you don't like you opening hand, except now it doesn;t matter if you have a really bad mulligan too.

3) I hardly use agendas right now....If it means I go a little lighter on wildlings and they don't have stealth and +1 thats fine as I also know need 6 less power to win the game.....this agenda essential says the first wildling I play is reduced by 2 gold anyway.

just imagine a plot deck of valar, fear of winter, cityx4 and fleeing. Its minimum 4 gold per plot without reducers with 6 control plots, and the flexibilty to put cards into shadows and pay for a lot more influence events without clogging your deck with influence. or sub in blockade for fear of winter, lowers your godl to 2, but could catch someone in a really bad position.

yeah fear of winter could hurt this deck early...but it then becomes a 4 6 2 plot late......they have yet to release a 2 claim plot with more than 3 gold and the better the effect on the 2 claim the lower the gold....the agenda says plot weaknesses, I have none!

There is absolutly no way for your opponent to do anything about 2 gold and 2 influence a turn for you no matter how many control elements they had (first turn frozen solid.....haha!)

Not only are more cards opened to me with the agenda I now can run at least 2 less locations in my deck, maybe even four as I have the best location in the game and it can't be touched so the no other gold bonus deterrent goes right out the window as I just take those 3x 0 +1 gold limiteds and toss them in the trash. don't need seas as I'm no longer worried about maximizing my flop, I could probably get by with like 3 streets, 2 fiefdoms, 1 2 for 2 reducer, and some combo of 3 of bay of ice and shivering sea.

I mean targ can kneel its house card to play a character or kill a 2 str character.................................and then use the extra +2 gold to do the other one, wash rinse repeat.

Summoning Season first turn? 6-5-1 beats Fear of Winter 2-4-2. Make your opponent go first. Fetch Margaery and play her during your Marshall. In Bara you have 3 gold left and potential reducers. OOH you have 1 gold left and potential reducers.

Just food for thought.

By the way, thumbs up on the card, Dobbler

nice thoughts Fatmouse, its almost a shame On Raven's Wings isn't around

Lars said:

I don't even want to think about what that would cause if it was around. Core set bran alone would make city plot decks really really good.

@Fatmouse-This was the first thing I thought of when I saw the agenda. I mean that plan is way better out of Bara than other houses, but the more cards that make people want to play bara, the better!

FATMOUSE said:

There's actually quite some problem with this - since they will undoubtedly have played one or more epic events, they can play Rule by Decree and you're in real trouble.

I agree this agenda is pretty **** good, but I also feel there is a deck and a place for it. I feel like people are jumping the gun too early on this one.

Well it definitely changes the whole metgame. You can't argue that - every deck decision you make is totally different now than it will be when this agenda is available.

That being said - it clearly doesn't just get slapped on every House card (and perosnally i don't think it will work real well with Shadows - +2 gold on the City plots isn't going to be enough). Its going to take though and deck engineering to abuse this - just like the designer intended.

wrecking ball, did you feel that way about the eryrie too? or did that slot into just about any deck? This is so much better then the eryrie because it doesn't take up deck slots, is invulnerable, and adds initative bonus too.....

The Eryrie proves that giving up the flop was not a draw back (I actually see it as piece of mind....if I get a bad draw I don;t have to be nervous about an even worse mulligian or if I'm running a combo that I really really want to see first turn I get a free shot at trying to get it without having to worry about sacrificing a good flop). If you are really worried about being out charactered first turn flip marched to the wall at 5 5 1....

The downside of the income producers not counting isn't a real problem due to the number of reducers (what deck doesn't run reducers)? My only complaint about seat of power gets tossed right out the window with this agenda as it could in theory by the only limited card bara runs now.

There are workable solutions to a supposed weakness of 1st turn fear of winter (i'd be estatic if someone first turn rule by decreed me instead....6 5 1 still beats 4 4 1 and I don't go get margery, go first lose 3 cards and go get a character....puts me at 5 cards them at 7.).

Stag, a 5 8 1 w/ 2 free shadows cards doesn't work? a 5 3 1 kneel, a 5 2 2 kill, a 3 2 2 redo, a 6 6 1 discard pile recursion doesn't work? the stark location that cheapens shadows on exit (with alliance at 6 5 1), 3x twilight market instead of 3x +1 gold locations.....i think it works fine with shadows oh and you got 2 free influence to play around with too (seasick just got trashed....)

Many of the decks I saw the eryie really shine in were control based decks, control, while in the current environment isn't as nearly prevalent as it was before. Also there were many more gold options to back the eyrie up, with this agenda you don't even have a chance to increase that amount of gold, so my question is, when your reducers start running out, via seas in the discard pile or location destruction where does that leave you in the late game?

Like I said, I love the card, and I loved the eyrie, and I never minded the eyrie taking up three spots in my deck, one of the plus sides of the eyrie in your deck was that it would thin it out leaving you with 57 cards (if you were running 60).

I agree with Lars that it'll be strong and with Stag that it'll be meta changing, but I'm not sure I'm happy about that. I'm worried that the game is getting too unwieldly, or, at least, more polarizing of the players. When deck building was more straightforward when I started the game, it was more about deck refinement. Sure there were people building some novel decks, but you could generally count on games playing according to the "standard" rules and that some generalities about deck building would mostly be true in each game. I follow the forum, think about and discuss the game when I can, and try to play two evenings a month. But it's getting increasingly difficult for me to feel like I have a hold on all of the major moving parts that are available. Imagine how it feels to the casual at-home player who dips their toes into organized/competitive play and faces decks and conditions that don't seem like the game they know. I worry it might turn new would-be OP players off when their first night has them playing a Shadows deck, a Siege of Winterfell deck, and now a deck built around this agenda. Sure new players would likely lose their first time at a meetup, but before they could "see" what was happening and relate it to what they were trying to do and grow there understanding. Now they'll get slapped around by a deck that does things very unlike the game they first tried in the Core Set.

Eh, maybe I'm overreacting or maybe I'm being petty because I'm finding it harder to feel part of the game with the limited time I have available for it. Hell, I'll probably build a deck with this agenda and absolutely love it.

A question for the "old guard": Is this the most influential that Agendas have been on the game? It seems like almost all decks are being built around an Agenda now, which hasn't been the case in my time (starting when Winter block was in its final months before rotation).

The most commonly played Agenda was the original Treaty Agenda. The most powerful was likely Defenders of the North. And while I might be in the minority, I almost NEVER play agendaless deck, and I've played that way for 4 years now.

Trety was all over the freaking place that one year (Valyrian block) - until Black Walder came out and hammered OOH stuff. Between that, Knigths of teh Realm and then the War of teh Five Kings - agendas were really dominant. This is the biggest they have been since then. Good thing? Bad thing? i don't knwo - they all seem to be pretty thematic - I'm a little worried about the North ones really dominating - but lets see where we are in a few months.

I do sort of agree that teh agme is getting a little unwiedly on teh competitive level - but I'd wnat to hear from soem fo teh newer LCG era posters before i pronounce on it. And I don't think you're going to hear from too many casual players here - though i would hoep they woudl chime in. I think its imperative for TOs and more veterans to take the pulse of newbies and make sure they are happy. League play with limited decks may be a must to keep new players happy.

And yeah Lars - i don't think Plot gold +2 will drive a good shadows deck. i just don't Its too resource intensive. Great agenda, changes everything - absolutely does not just get slapped on every House card or improve every build. (By the way - seat of Power has already been a bomb card since it hit - this Agenda doesn't improve it - Seat was already A+. Just sayin').

Since FFG launched the LCG era of Thrones, they have not been shy to say that they wanted to market heavily to the casual gamer. It is very clear that this is one of their target audiences, particularly with the move to chapter packs that contain 3x of each card and a collectibility model that enables minimal buying compared to the CCG days. However, they also have made some strides to keep the competitive gamer around. While the OP program is a shadow of its old self from the CCG days, we did just finish a successful regional season with multiple venues in the states having an attendance topping 15, and several overseas topping 30. And we are less than two weeks away from the World Championships at Gencon where I think we will have 40-50 participants in both the Joust and Melee events. So it seems they have a reasonable job of marketing to both crowds. And the little birds have told me that sales for the game have consistently been growing.

However, while I do think it is in FFGs best interest to design cards that appeal to both the casual and competitive gamer, I find that the primary responsibility falls to the individual metagroups to police themselves. Our meta has around 12-15 people who have purchased the game, and the typical Saturday evening game time has between 6-10 players. But our meta is very diverse as we have high level competitive players, but we also have casual players who just want to have fun. One of our players, Mike, has even stated he doesn't want to do tournaments like the regional again, because he just doesn't like the intense atmosphere. And I've found that if I play one of my competitive decks against a player who feels like that, it isn't really fun. I just end up stomping them, they didn't have fun in the game and I actually feel guilty for the blowout. So nobody has fun. But if it is all FFGs responsibility to design cards that appeal to one group or the other, they stand to risk losing that group. As the game grows (and the card pool grows), its going to become more and more important for the individual metas to usher in new players in a way that lets them develop the level of play that they want to participate in.

dude, +2 plot gold is such a narrow view of the agenda.......

I don't think this alone would turn new players off....I mean imagine when the core set came out and a new player went and played against a castellan of the rock lanni deck. Or got hit by valar followed by blockade first 2 turns. I stole Authur dayne and daneyers in the same turn from one of our newer meta members in one of our first games, he still plays.

I think that its more about the way in which this stuff happens to new(er) players. If I had stolean those two characters and either not said anything, said "Suck on that...what what!!!!, or "NEXT!" it might have been the end of that player. Instead, I said to him in a pleasent tone, "as you play more you'll see that you don't over commit to only a few really big characters becuase certain ones or certain house have vulnerablities [explained MWnK and my plot]." did those actions then said, "lets see your hand and what you might have done differently" and offered a few deck building tips.

Lars said:

Completely agree. I haven't really played any other card games, but when I have, I've had no qualms with getting "owned" by much more experienced players. I rather start playing a card game with an extremely skilled meta, than one that just plays casually. If the meta is friendly, which pretty much all AGoT metas are, it'll help me get up to it's speed.

Competitively, this Agenda does wonders. Casually, I can't see how it would hurt. It only creates more deck options (which actually makes it less likely that one particular deck will dominate the field), and as others have suggested, you can always have limited play if it really becomes an issue. I know casual players that already don't go to tournaments. The addition or removal of cards in the game isn't going to change that.

If anything the "lack" of cards/deck options has prevented a player I know from even wanting to play the game at all. He only plays Bara and finds that it's unable to keep up with the other competitive builds from other Houses. Overall, I agree with him. The Bara box should change this though, and once it comes out I'm certain he'll be back at the game tables.

The biggest and really only legitimate concern about there being more cards is the rising cost of being able to fully enter the game. It's why FFG seriously needs to create packs of each CP expansion with 2x of the single cards. Selling the game to new players becomes harder and harder as the costs rise.

TL;DR

AGoT players/metas are friendly to newcomers. More cards/deck options is a good thing. Cost of entering the game is becoming an issue as more and more cards are available.

I think a lot depends on the mind set of the new player, and that has a lot to do with the mindset of their meta mates.

I wouldn't recommend a new player to go buy all the old stuff x3. Sure there are some boffo cards in there but it would be much easier for them to focus on what is new and easily available start playing and then from that point start deciding what Houses and deck types they like to play and then expand to buying the Chapter Packs that feature the cards for that. If that means they buy LOW x1 and Winter x1 then KLE x3 because they want a Shadow Stark deck that makes much more sense than buying every CP x3, CS x3, etc. etc.

You don't need everything to be competitive, you just need certain cards x3 and if they are willing to learn the game before making that investment, they may find that the new CP's provide a really good base when added to a CS or House Expansion for a competitive deck.

There has been no word on rotation and someone mentioned at some point that they may be reprinting some of the older CP's anyone know if this is true? I wonder if they have a policy regarding this already in place. Anyone have thoughts on this?

Either way, this is an awesome Agenda, opens up so much deck building space, without becoming an auto-include (for every person, every house, and every build, not to say some people build decks in a fashion where this agenda won't be an auto-include for them).

Excellent job Greg.

I thought when they announced the LCG shift at the end of '07 they said the Chapter Packs would be printed in a limited run. Ocne they were printed and shipped - that was it. done. It was supposed to save them money and cut the produciton costs way down.

LetsGoRed said:

LetsGoRed said:

Of course, the flipside is what does it feel like for the casual at-home player who dips their toes in only discover that they're playing against a Lannister kneel deck on round, then Lannister kneel the next round, then Lannister kneel the round after that. While the game may indeed be getting more complicated, I would think that a wider variety of viable decks makes a tournament more interesting and less brutal to a newer player who isn't just getting hammered by the same cards in the same uber build game after game after game.