Hey folks, it's your friendly, neighborhood Wytefang-man here in timely fashion to spoil the contents of Battlepack expansion #2 in "The Enemy Cycle" for the Warhammer: Invasion LCG. Enjoy. ::: tips hat:::

R = Resources, L= Loyalty Icons, P= Power, HP = Hit Points

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1. Master Rune of Spite - Dwarf Tactic - 3R,3L "Rune. ACTION: Each unit deals damage to itself equal to its power."

2. Runesmith Apprentice - Dwarf Unit - 2R, 1L, 1P, 2HP - "Warrior. ACTION: When this unit enters play, search the top five cards of your deck for any number of RUNE cards, reveal them, and put them into your hand. Then, shuffle the remaining cards into your deck."

3. Ancestral Tomb - Dwarf Support - 2R, 2L, 1P - "Building. ACTION: When this card enters play, put the top 2 cards of your deck into this zone as developments."

4. Grudgebearer - Dwarf Unit - 2R, 1L, 1P, 2HP - "Warrior. This unit gains 1P for each resource token on it. FORCED: When one of your other Dwarf Units leaves play, put a resource token on this card."

5. Wilhelm of the Osterknacht - Empire Unit - 4R, 2L, 2P, 4HP - "Hero. Knight. Limit one Hero per Zone. ACTION: When this unit attacks, move one unit from the defending Zone to another Zone controlled by the same player."

6. Called Back - Empire Tactic - 2R, 2L - "ACTION: Return target unit to its owner's hand."

7. Scroll of Asur - High Elf Tactic - 0R, 2L - "Spell. ACTION: Look at the top five cards of your deck. Then, return them to the top of your deck in any order."

8. Watchstone of Athel Tamarha - High Elf Support - 3R, 1L - "Building. Kingdom. ACTION: When you play a SPELL card, gain 1 Resource."

9. Followers of Skarsnik - Orc Unit - 3R, 1L, 1P, 2HP - "Goblin. This unit gains 1P and +1 HP for every other copy of 'Followers of Skarsnik" you control."

10. Stunty Smasha - Orc Unit - 2R, 1L, 1P, 1HP - "Warrior. ACTION: Sacrifice this unit to destroy target development."

11. Savage Rage - Orc Support - 2R, 2L - "Attachment. Condition. Attach to a target Orc unit. Attached unit gains 1P for every resource token on this card. FORCED: When attached unit deals combat damage, put 1 resource token on this card."

12. Fanatic Frenzy - Orc Tactic - 1R, 2L - "ACTION: Target unit in your battlefield gains 1P for each damaged unit you control. Sacrifice that unit at the end of the turn."

13. Smash 'em, Bash 'em - Orc Quest - 0R, 2L - "Quest. FORCED: Place 1 resource token on this card at the beginning of your turn if a unit is questing here. Quest. ACTION: Discard 1 resource token from this card to have target unit in the battlefield gain 1P until the end of the turn."

14. Effulgent Boils - Chaos Support - 1R, 2L - "Attachment. Disease. Attach to a target unit. Corrupt that unit. Attached unit cannot be restored."

15. Grandfather's Call - Chaos Tactic - 1R, 1L - "Spell. ACTION: Sacrifice a unit to search the top five cards of your deck for any number of DISEASE cards, reveal them, and add them to your hand. Shuffle the remaining cards into your deck."

16. Vanguard of Woe - Dark Elf Unit - 2R, 1L, 1P, 2HP - "Warrior. ACTION: When this unit leaves play, target opponent discards a card from his hand."

17. Helbane's Raiders - Dark Elf Unit - 4R, 2L, 2P, 2HP - "Elite. Warrior. ACTION: When an opponent discards one or more cards from his hand, deal 1 damage to target unit."

18. Bottomless Mine - Neutral Support - 2R, 1P - "Building. LIMITED - (You cannot play more than one limited card per turn.) Kingdom. This card gains 2P if there are at least 2 units in this zone."

19. Dark Abyss - Neutral Support - 2R, 1P - "Location. ACTION: At the beginning of your turn, discard the top card of target player's deck."

20. Long Winter - Neutral Tactic - 0R - "ACTION: Return target development to its owner's hand."

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Discuss....

Going to comment on these (for once) with letter grade after my remarks:

1. Master Rune of Spite - Dwarf Tactic - 3R,3L "Rune. ACTION: Each unit deals damage to itself equal to its power."

It's nice to see Dwarves get a partially effective Troll Vomit of sorts. It's not terribly powerful but still useful at the right time. B

2. Runesmith Apprentice - Dwarf Unit - 2R, 1L, 1P, 2HP - "Warrior. ACTION: When this unit enters play, search the top five cards of your deck for any number of RUNE cards, reveal them, and put them into your hand. Then, shuffle the remaining cards into your deck."

Always nice to see cards that help boost different themes and this can also help speed things up a bit for certain Dwarf builds. Pretty cool. B+

3. Ancestral Tomb - Dwarf Support - 2R, 2L, 1P - "Building. ACTION: When this card enters play, put the top 2 cards of your deck into this zone as developments."

Another helpful card for Bolt-thrower decks (potentially) and Dwarf-development-centric decks. B-

4. Grudgebearer - Dwarf Unit - 2R, 1L, 1P, 2HP - "Warrior. This unit gains 1P for each resource token on it. FORCED: When one of your other Dwarf Units leaves play, put a resource token on this card."

In sales, guys who can close a deal are commonly referred to as "closers" - this is a closer for the Dwarves. He really rounds out the Dwarves themes of vengeful powers and powers tied to Dwarf units leaving play. So cool. A+

5. Wilhelm of the Osterknacht - Empire Unit - 4R, 2L, 2P, 4HP - "Hero. Knight. Limit one Hero per Zone. ACTION: When this unit attacks, move one unit from the defending Zone to another Zone controlled by the same player."

Super interesting card and another clever/tricky-type of card to fit into Empire's style. A reverse move-your-unit card that could actually play into a milling strategy or just help you burn a zone given enough time. Wish it wasn't limited as Hero and Unique but playtesting must have proved it to be powerful in that regard, which is why I'm guessing they limited it so much. Cool card. A-

6. Called Back - Empire Tactic - 2R, 2L - "ACTION: Return target unit to its owner's hand."

Feels a lot like a High-Elf card but still pretty darn useful for Empire all things considered - though a bit pricey to be used too commonly. B.

7. Scroll of Asur - High Elf Tactic - 0R, 2L - "Spell. ACTION: Look at the top five cards of your deck. Then, return them to the top of your deck in any order."

Nifty control-style card that can tie in neatly to Waystone Neutral card-theme that this expansion seems to have boosted a bit and has several other interesting applications. B+

8. Watchstone of Athel Tamarha - High Elf Support - 3R, 1L - "Building. Kingdom. ACTION: When you play a SPELL card, gain 1 Resource."

Another very useful card that also ties into that Waystone/Spell theme. A-.

9. Followers of Skarsnik - Orc Unit - 3R, 1L, 1P, 2HP - "Goblin. This unit gains 1P and +1 HP for every other copy of 'Followers of Skarsnik" you control."

Cool card but not insanely great. B-.

10. Stunty Smasha - Orc Unit - 2R, 1L, 1P, 1HP - "Warrior. ACTION: Sacrifice this unit to destroy target development."

Call me goofy but I love the amusing way that Orc stuff is worded and spelled. A utility card and one that I'm guessing was meant to counter the Dwarves' usage of Development and/or the Bolt-thrower decks but overall I don't find this power terribly compelling and I dislike sacrificing units if it can be helped. B-

11. Savage Rage - Orc Support - 2R, 2L - "Attachment. Condition. Attach to a target Orc unit. Attached unit gains 1P for every resource token on this card. FORCED: When attached unit deals combat damage, put 1 resource token on this card."

Pretty beefy attachment, nothing insanely awesome but solid. B.

12. Fanatic Frenzy - Orc Tactic - 1R, 2L - "ACTION: Target unit in your battlefield gains 1P for each damaged unit you control. Sacrifice that unit at the end of the turn."

A temporary quick-hit boost of hulk-smash power that isn't limited to just an Orc unit. Neat card. B+

13. Smash 'em, Bash 'em - Orc Quest - 0R, 2L - "Quest. FORCED: Place 1 resource token on this card at the beginning of your turn if a unit is questing here. Quest. ACTION: Discard 1 resource token from this card to have target unit in the battlefield gain 1P until the end of the turn."

Another Orc steroid card, not the lynchpin of any new type of theme or anything but still somewhat useful for that final killing blow. B-

14. Effulgent Boils - Chaos Support - 1R, 2L - "Attachment. Disease. Attach to a target unit. Corrupt that unit. Attached unit cannot be restored."

Ah!!! FINALLY! This card helps put Chaos (and thus Corruption) back into serious contention. In past months I've felt that the Corruption theme was short of just a few potent corruption-inducing cards and with this latest card, it's finally ready to rock and roll. I built a corruption deck and it was scary. All you noble, pure units of Order prepare to be corrupted, baby. Chaos is here. DOOM HAS COME! A.

15. Grandfather's Call - Chaos Tactic - 1R, 1L - "Spell. ACTION: Sacrifice a unit to search the top five cards of your deck for any number of DISEASE cards, reveal them, and add them to your hand. Shuffle the remaining cards into your deck."

Useful card meant to enhance a theme that's not quite ready for prime-time yet, but based on the FFG card-of-the-week article that spoiled the Effulgent Boils card, it looks as if the Disease cards will be rolling in steadily in upcoming sets. NURGLE will infest your soul. MUHAHAHAHAHHA...ahem... B- (for now until we can really build upon this theme more).

16. Vanguard of Woe - Dark Elf Unit - 2R, 1L, 1P, 2HP - "Warrior. ACTION: When this unit leaves play, target opponent discards a card from his hand."

Nasty. Just nasty. Remind me to just walk away if I'm ever confronted by one of these vicious Dark Elves types. Yikes! Really helps with card denial themes, match this with Shades and Gutter Runners, to name a few and youch. A+

17. Helbane's Raiders - Dark Elf Unit - 4R, 2L, 2P, 2HP - "Elite. Warrior. ACTION: When an opponent discards one or more cards from his hand, deal 1 damage to target unit."

Vicious for combo capabilities - see card above - and a nice boost for Unit-removal deck themes, as well. Cool card. A.

18. Bottomless Mine - Neutral Support - 2R, 1P - "Building. LIMITED - (You cannot play more than one limited card per turn.) Kingdom. This card gains 2P if there are at least 2 units in this zone."

I'm not a huge fan of "conditional" Neutral buildings, in general, but this could be a very helpful mid-game speed booster, to some extent. B-

19. Dark Abyss - Neutral Support - 2R, 1P - "Location. ACTION: At the beginning of your turn, discard the top card of target player's deck."

Useful card for both the low cost and resource production, in general, but also because it helps boost a Milling theme/strategy, which I rather enjoy. A-

20. Long Winter - Neutral Tactic - 0R - "ACTION: Return target development to its owner's hand."

Not terribly enthused or overal impressed with this card though I suppose you could use it put a needed card back into your own hand - in that regard it's fairly nifty. B-

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It's nice and I'll definently pick this one up. The only thing I feel like I'm missing is more disease cards for chaos. I'll have to look but I don't think any of the nurgle demons have the disease trait. So that nice search card isn't as usefull right now as it could be. I really would like to see a harrowing theme added to chaos but we'll need more cards to get that to work well.

Really appreciate the list. Obviously gonna have to acquire these packs before the upcoming con

- dut

TY Wytefang!

I must say this certainly does seem like a very solid & exciting BP

Dwarves definitely have a stronger showing than the Orcs (which kind of confuses me - if it's called 'the Fall of Karak Grimaz' I would've expected Orcs to have a stronger showing...but that's cool with me Those around a while ago may have seen me knock the Dwarves for their mono-build & splashing competetiveness - so glad to see that changed - they rock now! (pun intended)

Most of the other races get at least one good solid card (i'd say High Elves kinda have the weakest showing based on a secondary theme...can help out healing decks or probably better, Bolt Thrower decks; but still secondary until Order has enough agressor/offensive spells to win you the game)

Empire of course with Willy. You know in its preview, it was posited how best to protect it - I thought first instinct to return it to hand - i used to use Pilgrimage a lot for Empire to do this with some success. Called Back does that now for usually lower cost. Still, wouldve made more sense to me that this & Banish traded costs & text, but that's fine. Still useful. Considering there's already a 2-cost tactic that moves to another zone, this is next best thing with a Willy Control deck.

Grinning ear to ear to see Dark Elves' discard theme continued

Order is slowing being restored to Chaos it looks like with good ol' wholesome corruption....Thank Nurgle!

Orcs get Bolt Thrower's new nuisance with a support-minded version of Lobber Crew. The other cards are nothing special in & of themselves, but added to an Orc deck that adds hammers & damage from multiple avenues, it adds up quickly. I especially like Fanatic Frenzy that synergizes (word?) with the already cool Orc Sadomasichistic deck type with Ugruck Beardburna leading the way

The neutrals are cool & have their uses: Bottomless Mines I'll use in my Dwarf deck as i like to have an abundance of units in it and 1-2 go in Kingdom anyway each game for the powa (been proxying Grudgebearer there with some success). LOVE to see the milling stratgery continued neutrally with Dark Abyss keeping it accessible to both Order & Destruction. Lastly, Long Winter I see as the most ho-hum card in the pack, but could be useful as Wytefang said to get back an early-devoloped key card, perhaps to avoid it being discarded w/o having to pay for Abandoned Mine....other than that, a counter to Bloodthirster+Rip Dere 'eads Off?

Overall I'd say i'm VERY impressed with this BP with the selection of cards - best yet!

HAHA guess all those ratmen fled to the sewers when they saw the new order ally.

Wytefang said:

Like I mentioned over on BGG, HElves not getting much love. Pilgrimage and Called Back both do what Banishment does, except they are A) cheaper (Pilgrimage depends on QZ developments) and B) do it better (since no limitation like Banishment).

Dam,

Highelves are getting a ton of love next month. You'll see.
Hope you like spells and dragons. They are about to get serious upgrade.

Oh and Dark Elves are also going to get more discarding cards.

The Dragon I'm looking forward to, HElves need something other than Swordmasters that you want to attack with that will do decent damage (though at 4HP, the Dragon is bit on the weak side healthwise).

1. Master Rune of Spite - Dwarf Tactic - 3R,3L "Rune. ACTION: Each unit deals damage to itself equal to its power."

Win card over orcs and chaos. DEVASTATING. 6/6

2. Runesmith Apprentice - Dwarf Unit - 2R, 1L, 1P, 2HP - "Warrior. ACTION: When this unit enters play, search the top five cards of your deck for any number of RUNE cards, reveal them, and put them into your hand. Then, shuffle the remaining cards into your deck."

Nothing special, I don't fancy units with 'search the deck' skills. 3/6

3. Ancestral Tomb - Dwarf Support - 2R, 2L, 1P - "Building. ACTION: When this card enters play, put the top 2 cards of your deck into this zone as developments."

Dwarf theme. Unless there are more 'take one development card into your hand' cards it's risky. 2/6

4. Grudgebearer - Dwarf Unit - 2R, 1L, 1P, 2HP - "Warrior. This unit gains 1P for each resource token on it. FORCED: When one of your other Dwarf Units leaves play, put a resource token on this card."

Cheap, effective, agressive. 5/6

5. Wilhelm of the Osterknacht - Empire Unit - 4R, 2L, 2P, 4HP - "Hero. Knight. Limit one Hero per Zone. ACTION: When this unit attacks, move one unit from the defending Zone to another Zone controlled by the same player."

Best Empire hero right now. In addition with Gold Wizard, Surrender and Called Back Empire becomes a great attacker.6/6

6. Called Back - Empire Tactic - 2R, 2L - "ACTION: Return target unit to its owner's hand."

Fair, yet I'd love to see that at HE side. Banish is weak in comparison to this. Not only it is more expensive it also has a condition that not always can be meet. 4/6

7. Scroll of Asur - High Elf Tactic - 0R, 2L - "Spell. ACTION: Look at the top five cards of your deck. Then, return them to the top of your deck in any order."

Nah. Coaster. 2/6

8. Watchstone of Athel Tamarha - High Elf Support - 3R, 1L - "Building. Kingdom. ACTION: When you play a SPELL card, gain 1 Resource."

HE as a spell oriented race can have a lot of use with this support, yet it would've been better with 1P. 4/6

9. Followers of Skarsnik - Orc Unit - 3R, 1L, 1P, 2HP - "Goblin. This unit gains 1P and +1 HP for every other copy of 'Followers of Skarsnik" you control."

3R? As useless as Blue Horror. 1/6

10. Stunty Smasha - Orc Unit - 2R, 1L, 1P, 1HP - "Warrior. ACTION: Sacrifice this unit to destroy target development."

Is it worth taking place of goblin wagon? Nah. 2/6

11. Savage Rage - Orc Support - 2R, 2L - "Attachment. Condition. Attach to a target Orc unit. Attached unit gains 1P for every resource token on this card. FORCED: When attached unit deals combat damage, put 1 resource token on this card."

Good, but Choppa is still better and cheaper. 3/6

12. Fanatic Frenzy - Orc Tactic - 1R, 2L - "ACTION: Target unit in your battlefield gains 1P for each damaged unit you control. Sacrifice that unit at the end of the turn."

Small cost, can bring 2-4 dmg for 1R. Fair enough. 4/6

13. Smash 'em, Bash 'em - Orc Quest - 0R, 2L - "Quest. FORCED: Place 1 resource token on this card at the beginning of your turn if a unit is questing here. Quest. ACTION: Discard 1 resource token from this card to have target unit in the battlefield gain 1P until the end of the turn."

Hold Black Ork Squad on this quest for a couple of turns and launch it over and over again for the final attack. 5/6

I don't agree with most players here that Chaos is the worst, has no use and so on. If you don't spend on the game hundreds of $ and u have only (?) one copy of each expansion/battle pack than Chaos defenitely was in the top 3 races.

14. Effulgent Boils - Chaos Support - 1R, 2L - "Attachment. Disease. Attach to a target unit. Corrupt that unit. Attached unit cannot be restored."

What can I say? Simply great. 6/6

15. Grandfather's Call - Chaos Tactic - 1R, 1L - "Spell. ACTION: Sacrifice a unit to search the top five cards of your deck for any number of DISEASE cards, reveal them, and add them to your hand. Shuffle the remaining cards into your deck."

Again, these kind of action can bring either nothing or plenty cards u need, but do u have reasources and place for these 'search' cards? 3/6

16. Vanguard of Woe - Dark Elf Unit - 2R, 1L, 1P, 2HP - "Warrior. ACTION: When this unit leaves play, target opponent discards a card from his hand."

As long as a player holds at least one weak card in his hand, he has nothing to worry about. Waiting till more discard cards of DE. 4/6

17. Helbane's Raiders - Dark Elf Unit - 4R, 2L, 2P, 2HP - "Elite. Warrior. ACTION: When an opponent discards one or more cards from his hand, deal 1 damage to target unit."

4R 2P 2HP - nice. Action has not much of a use tight now. 4/6

18. Bottomless Mine - Neutral Support - 2R, 1P - "Building. LIMITED - (You cannot play more than one limited card per turn.) Kingdom. This card gains 2P if there are at least 2 units in this zone."

Great IMHO. I usually play Dwarves or Chaos and both these races need high res almost always. Auto add to both decks. 5/6

19. Dark Abyss - Neutral Support - 2R, 1P - "Location. ACTION: At the beginning of your turn, discard the top card of target player's deck."

Every discard deck should love this card. 5/6

20. Long Winter - Neutral Tactic - 0R - "ACTION: Return target development to its owner's hand."

Not interested. 2/6

Wytefang said:

As a Bolt Thrower player (I know the deck is bad for the game, but I love playing it), I've been dreaming of a card that does exactly this. I figured it would cost 1, or maybe 1 and a loyalty, but 0 cost is even better. It's disappointing that you can't play this card in response to another to find the right answer (because of the way the stack works in this game), but I think it will still be a nice addition to the deck.

@f7eleven, I'm on the fence. Its definitely an excellent effect to have in the deck, and if not for Abandoned Mine would be a solid 2-3x, but its pretty narrow even with City Gates, Ancestral Tomb, & Mining Tunnels. If we had sideboards it goes in there to fight the scout deck no question, but I'm not convinced. Any thoughts on a list including it? Its probably time to test some standard decks again...

Some other thoughts...

Ancestral Tomb is so good. Tomb & Mining Tunnels... just wow. Dwarves and Thrower are really badly outstripping Destruction for their resource/draw engines.

Master Rune of Spite is the sickness. Order badly needed this card to exist, but boy dwarves did not need the help... I love it. But I hate it.

Effulgent Boils is the answer Chaos has been looking for to Clan Moulder's Elite. Shame about Pillage, Lobber Crew etc etc but its a step in the right direction (WTB Wight Lord...). Chaos' early game is so poor that I wonder if this isnt what we can expect from Chaos.. getting loyalty on the board via permanents that answer opposing development rather than build up your own.

Bottomless Mine seems bad to me, too vulnerable to disruption for the effect, but I noticed it. It definitely could work in the right circumstances, but Contested Stronghold seems like a better way to ramp if that's your plan.

Vanguard of Woe actually seems decent. You definitely think twice about spending a card to kill this guy, though Deathmastering him seems tasty (turn a random card in your hand into a 0-cost pillage). I'm not sure Destruction control wouldnt trade a random card and a WNYB for setting them back that far on resources/cards though. But maybe - its worth a look.

Not really impressed by anything else here.

Discard/Mill Chaos/DE just got some beef to 'em.

ddm5182 said:

Doesn't work with Mininig Tunnels, sadly. Mining Tunnels specifies that the Development played has to come from the player's hand in order to trigger the free card draw. Since Ancestral Tomb puts the developments into play from the deck, it doesn't trigger Mining Tunnels.

Fair, good catch. Still an extremely solid card - 2 cost 1 power supports are playable and this ability when combined with Reap, Abandoned Mine, etc is very solid and will see play in bolt thrower, and probably in dwarves as well.

Slight derail, but in general this is what I want our resource and card draw base to look like - synergistic, powerful cards that aren't a degenerate advantage if one player has them but the other doesn't. This kind of design is excellent, and the format would be so much better if all our resource bases looked like this instead of 3x warpstone 3x contested village 3x innovation 3-5x alliances /yawn.

They do both work amazingly with Contested Stronghold for your resource engine. And maybe Tomb even replaces City Gates in the Bolt Thrower deck. After seeing the spoiler I was also wondering if switching Bolt Thrower to the Dwarf board isn't a bad idea. It may not be best, but I want to try it out.

ddm5182 said:

Good points - glad you didn't take my remark as "snarky know-it-all correcting you" - it's really easy to come across that way when you catch a combo that doesn't work and point it out. Not my intention.

Good comments here...

@f7eleven - its an interesting way to take the deck. Definitely starts to look attractive given that the main HE cards you are casting come quite late in the curve. The prospect of having to overpay for Gifts/Flames is scary, but I think it is definitely worth testing.

Wytefang said:

Super sexy spoiler, super sexy review, super sexy battlepack. Good times.

However, I'm a massive fan of this card. Mark my words, it will burn zones, and it will end games when people aren't expecting those games to end. And Empire like it too because it's free.

PS: Hope you don't mind if I copypasta the spoiler into the future thread when I get around to updating it with that new battlepack and lizardmen cards later today, credit will of course be given ^^

Thanks, no worries on the "credit" - your spoiler, updated info thread has been super cool for everyone to reference. Many thanks for doing it!!

LordMalinari said:

i agree. I played this in my Dwarven Development deck last night. Knowing it is out there gives me a lot more freedom to bury cards to power Mining Tunnels, play Ancestral Tomb to suddenly move that zone away from a next turn burn etc. I have abandoned mine in the deck but this card really just made it much more competitive. I have not even scratched the itch of using it as an Offensive Weapon.

Overall I think this is teh best BP released and it bodes well for the game.

You guys are too excited about card disadvantage... Long Winter is a tool for thrower to help it fight scouts & reduce variance from City Gates/Ancestral Tomb - I can't see it being worth a card in any other context right now. It might not even be good enough in Thrower (and I am betting it isnt).

ddm5182 said:

I like it as an early game, free, Will of the Electors in Empire with Judgement, where it can also serve the bonus role of burning zones left on precarious levels of health and relying on a single development to keep the zone up, before also considering its defensive applications. I won't disagree that it's a very narrow card, but I think it might have its uses. Of course, I haven't played with it yet so this may just be conjecture but I'd wager most things written on a spoiler the day of its release are as well, so no harm done lol ^^

With very much respect to DDM, I'm going to trust RexGator on this one's usefulness since he's already put some games under his belt with it. I think it'll prove useful though not hugely important.

And again, Bolt-throwers are totally, laughable (imho, of course) over-rated (no offense to F7Eleven who really loves them). I've had little trouble beating even good ones since they started appearing in matches. They are potent against a few builds but against top deck themes, they're just not very scary at all.

Generally I make a point of not responding to your trolling, but I'm going to bite this once: you have no idea what you are talking about. Seriously, just stop spouting your "thrower isnt good!" nonsense all over the place, or else show me a list I can test against thrower to prove your point. Clamatius and I have posted plenty of lists, from Orc/Skaven to Dwarves to DE to Chaos control, and we've build TONS more that we havent posted (HE ramp, empire aggro, empire combo/control, Orc control, the list goes on and on and on...) and we have found NOTHING that stands up to thrower on a consistent basis that doesn't also punt hard against the field, particularly Orc/Skaven and Dwarves. (So no, Grimgor.dec does not get there).

Here's what I want you to do. I want you to POST A LIST that beats thrower on a consistent basis and has game against rush/midrange that we can test. I promise you, I will thoroughly test it against thrower, orc/skaven and dwarves and I will post match results, lines of play, the works. You provide the list, I provide the testing.

So, its go time. Put up or shut up.