Ok, two Stark players are playing against each other.

Player ONE wins a military on offense. Player TWO plays Feigned Retreat.

Response: If an opponent would win a Military challenge against you, kneel 2 influence to cancel the determination of challenge winner. You automatically win the challenge.

If player ONE also has a Feigned Retreat in hand, could he then play it? Or has the "determination of challenge winner" window already closed, and thus there is no opportunity for responses?

My gut reaction: yes, the "determination process" is effectively cancelled or replaced by the card. There is no more "determination" being done once that (first) card is played, so the 2nd card wouldn't be able to cancel anything.

Dobbler said:

Hmm. I think I'd say it a little differently than Stormtower, but I'd agree with the outcome.

The second Feigned Retreat couldn't actually be played by the original attacker until the first one had completely resolved because until that first event resolves, the defending player is not winning the challenge against the attacker (and the attackers event would therefore not be valid). But after the first event has been resolved, it is not only too late to cancel the original framework determination of challenge winner (it's already been canceled and you can't cancel the same effect twice any more than you can save the same character from being killed twice), it is too late to cancel the "determination of challenge winner" represented by the "You automatically win the challenge" text on the event. It has already resolved.

Essentially, what it comes down to is that it would work if you were canceling a cancel. Unfortunately, Feigned Retreat cannot fit that timing.

How about this scenario

I play Feigned Retreat. My opponent cancels it with To Be a Kraken. Can I then attempt to play another Feigned Retreat? Or has the opportunity been lost?

Dobbler said:

Why not? The first was canceled so you're still loosing.

Rogue30 said:

I could have my thinking all wrong, but I was thinking if a save got canceled, you could not attempt to save that character again. But maybe I'm wrong on that.

Dobbler said:

Yes. You are wrong in your thinking. You are actually making a pretty common mistake that people make when trying to apply the "one Response per trigger" rule to saves. You cannot use the same save effect a second time on the same character, but you could use a second, different save effect on the same character.

For example, let's say I lose a military challenge and choose Tarle the Thrice Drowned to die for claim. I attempt to save him with with his own save ability. You use "He Calls It Thinking" to cancel my save. We're still in the "Save/Cancel" step, but I cannot try to save him again with his own save ability because I have already used its Response once for this trigger (Tarle being killed for claim). I can, however, use a completely different save ability (like an Iron Mines) to save him.

I think the common confusion here is that you only get one successful save per character. (If Tarle's own save had been successful, I could not have also saved him - a second time - with the Iron Mines just for the heck of it.) Many people leave out the "successful" part and find themselves remembering that you only get one save per character.

Thanks Ktom! As always I appreciate your hard work on these boards keeping me (and others) straight.

You'd think after playing this game for 7 years and playing as many games as I do per week that I would know some of this stuff by memory. But alas, I don't.