Eponral said:

Well, according to the rulebook, Artificer Armour has an MIU (remember that normal MIUs only give bonuses to Tech-Use, Pilot and Drive tests when interacting with equipment that is compatible with the MIU), but the suit itself wouldn't benefit from having one, it just means you are better at using compatible tech and vehicles.

I thought somewhere it said that some inquisitors who have PA have MIUs to better interact with it. It does not offer the same level of intergration as a marine gets, but it is better than nothing. I'm pretty sure I saw that somewhere. I'll have to look for it tonight. If it is true, one would have to wonder why they don't give all SOBs MIU. Can't be the cost, since they have the best equipment available to non-marines.

Eponral said:

MIU's are actually pretty rare implants when you look at it from the big picture. Also, given that the Sisters are foremost a branch of the Ecclesiarchy, and the Ecclesiarchy and Adeptus Mechanicus are not the best of friends, there may be some difficulties along such a line.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Kasatka said >>>

In RT the fact that nearly everyone can get a free suit of good if not best quality of power armour suggests they are relatively readily available, just hard to maintain and operate effectively.

Availability is always going to be an issue, but I think that it has been pretty clear from the days of the Necromunda skirmish wargame that these things were available, if not necessarily readily available. Certainly not too rare, anyway.

Kasatka said >>>

I'm not saying older books should be ignored, just that it shouldn't be considered AS canon as later material that by GW's own admission, should supercede it. Hell if we operate on equal canonicity for all products, i want my marines to be RT era marines and have jetbikes all over the show.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, I think. I do not consider "Revisionism" of the 'fluff' to be a productive move forwards, though it would make definite sense in application to the rules . All that working with this principle in the latest 'fluff' does is give arguable greater accessibility and more of a common place to argue from. I will, however, stick to using the good (obviously that's subjective) bits of the 'fluff' and merging it with the older background. YMMV but, once again, we're going to have to agree to disagree.

Incidentally, GW don't really say that the new books supersede the older ones, just that the universe is full of "half lies and truths" so that it is difficult to judge the veracity of individual documents beyond other bias. Even the third person materials, such as the Realms of Chaos duology is subject to this same bias, though that time it is obviously artistic intent/bias.

Kasatka said >>>

Well to appease both the tabletop fans of equal saves for astartes/sororitas, and the DH fans who follow the "sororitas use light power armour" line, i went for the best quality light power armour. Same AP for both, but the astartes benefit from all sorts of funky additional systems, not to mention the much less limited power supply.

There are numerous ways that one can funky things up, as you mention. I'm going to leave it at that since I not only haven't gotten to the Sisters in my own interpretation, but I also wouldn't want to get another thread talking about another system when it is not necessary to do so.

Kasatka said >>>

As to your point about Sororitas armour offering less protection - it arguably does. It doesn't boost your strength, it doesn't automatically treat your wounds, and the person inside it isn't half a tonne of armour muscle with an insanely hardy constitution. An Astartes can have his armour penetrated by what would be a lethal round to a Sororitas and just shrug it off and carry on killing.

Suffice to say that I'm not working with the same kind of automatic systemic buffing that Marines get by dint of being Marines.

Kasakta said >>>

I think you misconstrued my meaning - a Sororitas is a standard human, without any gene modification or major implantation, but power armour itself has big clompy boots and a large helmet and backpack, thus making you stand taller than you normally would.

I would suggest that you're over-estimating the thickness of these things, but since interpretation is ever personal... I was just pointing out that people might want to revise these height estimates for their own interpretations (since that would be an additional 1.5'that's some impressive heels!).

Kasatka said >>>

Balanced against the existing armours and game mechanics. Rogue Trader tried to change a few too many existing pieces of gear and rules to mesh too happily in my opinion, so i believe Deathwatch will learn from this mistake and add, rather than alter any new thing it wants to try.

Thanks for the explanation. Since I wouldn't want to spend too much time speculating at this juncture, I shall wait until I get a hold of the book before making any calls about how it handles certain things. I haven't been overtly impressed by the rules from the demo, nor the way that particular adventure was written, but as people are often extremely quick to point out: it's a demo and you get what you pay for.

Sandepande said >>>

When is the suit taken off? Is it taken off at all, except for repairs, medical assistance, or when changing to Terminator armour?

Yes, it is taken off frequently. Look to the novels such as Soul Hunter , Space Marine , and so forth. I know that many people want to make them into personal avatars of War that spend every second of the day (but for 4.25 hours, of course) training, but... Well, opinions vary.

Sandepande said >>>

What is the power source? Diesel, batteries, xeno blood?

Depends on which source you believe. The original Corvus armour power source was a "stacked atomic chain reactor," which for me makes it more suitable for a radioisotope thermal generator (and which I had previously used to stat up the armour in... another system). However, nuclear power plants, presumably fusion, have also been mentioned.

Personally I stick with the RTG.

Kasatka said >>>

with extra ablative plating on the pauldrons to cover the neck, power pack and torso from various angles.

In my own interpretation I utilise the pauldrons as part of the Marine "fighting style," as a way of soaking more damage than a direct hit to the armour might otherwise be able to take. Perhaps I'm over-influenced by some of the earlier artwork and miniatures, but the "pushing forwards" stance with the pauldron forwards, the bolter tight into the chest as they close on a unit and, then, out comes the whup-ass when they get into close combat with meat-sacks that burst apart so very easily.

Kasatka said >>>

There are also numerous vox relays, short and long range communication, scanning equipment, hazardous environment detectors, medicae equipment and monitoring equipment, and copious amounts of storage compartments and utility attachments for extra ammo clips, grenades, knives and specialist to attach to or be stored in, such as power weapons, apothecary's narthecium gauntlets etc.

Of course, where they put the kitchen sink is another matter altogether.

Kasatka said >>>

These massive suits also incorporate full sensorium arrays hardwired into the wearers brains, allowing an even more direct interface with the tactical situation and sharing of senses between squadmates.

This is one of those things that is about as sensible as the whole production shortcomings that we're meant to believe. YMMV, of course, but when you're dealing with autosenses...? Nah. Well, unless you're a believer in Phil Sibbering's approach, which would be fair enough.

Eponral said >>>

What if the wearer of PA has MIU?

Others have responded to this, but then consider that Astropaths, or at least those of an Astropathic Choir, are fitted with a direct neural interface, so one really has to question what the major difference is going to be... other than people saying that there is.

Kage

Kage...Not sure I follow what you are getting at about the MIU and the Choir. You mean that there is no benefit other than saying "Hey, I have a MIU?" Please explain. I don't know much about the Choir and all that, so maybe I am missing something.

Eponral said:

I said that they have a DNI/interface jack/data jack/whatever you want to call it, not an MIU. Or so it would appear from... Hmmn, was it Blind ? Or am I thinking of Lowink (sp.) from Eisenhorn ?

Kage

Kage2020 said:

Maybe it's USB 2.0?

That would be about right, since USB 3.0 seems to be out...

Kage

Kage2020 said:

In my own interpretation I utilise the pauldrons as part of the Marine "fighting style," as a way of soaking more damage than a direct hit to the armour might otherwise be able to take. Perhaps I'm over-influenced by some of the earlier artwork and miniatures, but the "pushing forwards" stance with the pauldron forwards, the bolter tight into the chest as they close on a unit and, then, out comes the whup-ass when they get into close combat with meat-sacks that burst apart so very easily.

Too true Kage, i've always envisaged Astartes using a very powerful shoulder-charge style of combat. These guys are super strong and resistant to most hostile fire, so it makes sense that they'd march forwards laying down a fusilade of fire whilst utilising the protection of their armour and it's pauldrons. Not to mention that in most of the fluff bolters aren't all that long ranged so it'd be sensible for the Astartes to close to close range for more damaging effect.

Also the amount of parrallels between the Imperium/Astartes and the Roman empire's armed forces and fighting styles would further cement this idea, as they made big use of shields to form impervious lines of troops. One book i read recently that draws even closer parallels was Dan Abnett's 'Brothers of the Snake', in which the Astartes are from a water world, so make big use of throwing spears and combat shields.

For an amusing visual reference, in replying to a thread on Warseer where Lord Dante revealed a particularly wonderful project of his (creating original 3d art of the Emperor), I was reminded of the image from Lost and the Damned , p173. Some of the only anatomically correct Marines ever presented in 40k artwork but... Well, suffice to say that I like to think of them as "Penguin Marines."

Kage

This is why MK VI 'Corvus' pattern armour has the studded left shoulder pad. Supposedly reinfinforcing their forward shoulder.

Game wise you could say that SM's in full power armour are always considered to have a defensive weapon for parrying by moving to deflect hits off the shoulder, or have part of the hit location (about 10" out of the arms or body) covered by extra armour.

Otherwise it would be a nice idea if Imperial Fists (when they are added) use a low fighting shoulder first fighting style that makes better use of their power armours protection to given them additional armour points.

Face Eater said:

I thought it was the other way around: the right shoulder was usually studded, and the studs were a cheap, Heresy-era stopgap alternative to the full adamantium plate in the left shoulder, which was the side a Marine charged with.

Mind you, elsewhere on the forums, Millandson confirms that Marines are functionally ambidextrous in the new DW ruleset, so it doesn't actually matter which side they charge with, they can swap as and when it suits them...

It's deffinately the left shoulder that 'beakies' have as studded plate (forgeworld have some Raven Guard veterans in it currently).

And yes it was because of lack of materials that they studded the place most likely to be hit from what I remember.

If I had to say why, i'd say that if they holding a bolter against their chest they have to do it right handed as that's the side of the bolter the ejection port is on but otherwise they are ambidexterous.

I know the discussions moved on a bit since the comments of why Sisters and Marines have 3+ saves in 40K whereas in DH/DW they have different armour, but I would like to point something out (as I've done in other threads) about comparisons like that.

Looking at the rules of 40K to justify fluff is a pointless exercise. 40K is a D6 based game, meaning there are only 6 possible results to every dice roll. It's a game that also uses very, very few modifiers because... well because of arbitrary, so this limits the scope of your rules considerably.

For this reason, everything in 40K is squashed towards the middle. It's the reason why a Storm Trooper and Marine are both as accurate as one another in 40K, when realistically the Marine should trounce the Stormy in accuracy. It's the reason why a Guardsman and a Storm Trooper and an Eldar Guard are all WS3, when the Stormy and the Guardian should be better than a basic Guardsman in HTH combat. When you've only got 6 results to every roll of the dice, that's the reality you get. So Power Armour in 40K is Sv3+ because it can't be 2+ (that's Terminator Territory) and and it can't be 4+ (that's Carapace Country).

In the 40K RPG's we do not have this problem. There are between 10 and 100 possible results to each dice roll rather than just 6, so the scope can be expanded. It means that the (obviously lighter and thinner) SoB Power Armour can be treated differently to the huge slabs of ceremite that Marines wear. This makes saying " But in 40K they're the same " a bit of a hollow argument.

BYE

Face Eater said:

That makes sense. Most modern assault weapons have mod kits to switch the ejection port to favour lefties...but applying "modern" ideas to the universe of 40k doesn't always work!

Not like hot brass is going to bother a marine in armor much anyways. Even if they're unhelmeted it and it hits their face!

H.B.M.C. said:

Why? Both use similar HUD targeting systems, so accuracy would be about the same. Stopping power, however, would be somewhat greater in the Marines favor.

GalagaGalaxian said:

They may not even notice but if it never gets out of the weapon because it's pressed against a plasteel aquila it's going to jam the weapon.

Pressing it flush against their chest would make for very awkward holding. Especialy given the usual shape of a boltgun (foregrip and all). The arm holding the pistol-grip would be the area crossing the chest, assuming its raised for firing.

BaronIveagh said:

BaronIveagh said:

Yep debateable, seeing as that could be Cadian Kaskarin who's been firing a lasgun all their lives or a fresh faced Space Wolf who's only been using a firearm since he won a knife fight to be an SM.

But on a more deffinitive example that BS 4 could be a fresh faced Space Wolf SM or an Ultramarines Veteran with terminator honours, so it does cover pretty much everything that counts as an unwholy crap load of practise, training and experience.

Face Eater said:

Not quite since several humans liek the Canoness and the Lord Commisar both have BS5 and I would qualify them just as above. I would expect that neither character is young however and may have a degree of magnitude more experience than a more common trooper. Sure there are example fo named "normal humans' having an equal BS of 5, but I was looking for people that are more "common"

andrewm9 said:

I should have qualified that with troops who...to distinguish from those and other mentioned hawk eye (or green arrrow if you preffer) contenders.

Face Eater said >>>

This is why MK VI 'Corvus' pattern armour has the studded left shoulder pad. Supposedly reinfinforcing their forward shoulder .

I know that we covered this before, but I was going through the original armour article and it distinctly says, "The Mark 5, or Corvus Suit, was only ever perceived as a stopgap design." Yet then we have images from the Index Astartes that show Mk VI as Corvus. Amusing.

Regardless of that, as the linked image shows, it most certainly is the left shoulder pad. From the original article we are given to understand that:

Originally from WD129 >>>

The left shoulder armour retains the same construction method as the earlier Mark 5 and for the same reasons.

The reason behind this was:

Originally from WD129 >>>

A distinguishing feature of the Mark 5 armour were the heavily studded armour plates. This was an attempt to reinforce the Mark 4 pattern plates when inferior materials were used due to lack of the proper supplies. An extra skin plate was fitted around the armour using molecular bonding studs.

Sorry if someone else posted this information previously, but I'm replying to this thread as I read.

Face Eater said >>>

Game wise you could say that SM's in full power armour are always considered to have a defensive weapon for parrying by moving to deflect hits off the shoulder, or have part of the hit location (about 10" out of the arms or body) covered by extra armour.

My own interpretation is currently only for Mk VII, but the approach was similar. A successful "technique roll" would essentially allow the Marine to interject the shoulder pauldron which served as "hardened armour," or reduced the damage (divided by 2). The armour itself could be penetrated by an extremely lucky shot from a lasgun, say, but with the successful employment of the pauldrons the Marine was functionally invulnerable to that and quite a few other weapons. (You wouldn't want to stand in the face of a fusillade of plasma weaponry!)

Face Eater said >>>

If I had to say why, i'd say that if they holding a bolter against their chest they have to do it right handed as that's the side of the bolter the ejection port is on but otherwise they are ambidexterous.

Ah, you had already posted the above information. I'll still leave it there, though. If nothing the images are useful.

H.B.M.C. said >>>

Looking at the rules of 40K to justify fluff is a pointless exercise. 40K is a D6 based game, meaning there are only 6 possible results to every dice roll. It's a game that also uses very, very few modifiers because... well because of arbitrary, so this limits the scope of your rules considerably.

Well, the game still remains the point of reference for the RPG materials. While I'm not a huge fan of taking the specifics from the game they do offer broad guidelines when they are not available from other sources.

With that said, I would agree that similarity in the wargame does not necessarily equate to similarity in a more developed system. You can clearly see that, I feel, by just looking at the troop types and their statistics.

BaronIveagh said >>>

Why? Both use similar HUD targeting systems, so accuracy would be about the same. Stopping power, however, would be somewhat greater in the Marines favor.

Indeed, though the latter would depend on what weapon they were using and whether you were going for the Civilian- and Astartes-grade weaponry malarkey. (If you are, that's cool. Just saying that it is one interpretation.)

Kage

Thanks for all the replies. I'm keen to see what FFG's take is on this, but it'd be odd if they'd go much against the established fluff.

It seems that our future Kill-team will end up armourless at one point or another... Oh, lovely!