I think what could be said about all power armor is that even the lightest power armor amplifies the wearer's strength to the extent of enabling them to carry the suits weight. That is all I imagine the lightest armor does. While something like a space marine's armor maybe able to do more to assists the marine with the significantly higher strength actions, such as when a 1000+lbs of marine with a jump pack lands.

having been down to gw head office notts to discuss this with other gamers and staff alike over at bugmans we have come to the conclusion that in general power armour is used as a catch all phrase wich incorporates things like powered armour, armoured power plate and the holy grail of them all astartes power armour and thats just based of a brief discussion so should astartes PA be better? yes in theory but they are worn by marines who are on average worth 100 normal soldiers so anything they get is likey to be more dangerous than normal anyway i mean which is scarier a marine with a las pistol or a guardsman???

@Polaria

The problem with that line of thought is that it makes no sense from an engineering point of view. You've got power armour, but it isn't actually powered in the sense of providing help with moving in it? That can't be, considering the rules Ascension gave us for moving in unpowered PA. So would you build an armour that provides exactly as much strength as provided to lift it? When you're at that point, why not go beyond it? The whole point of today's slowly developing PAs is that they enhance the wearer's strength. I can buy "no life-sustainers on Sororitas Armour", but "no strength enhancement" sounds like "Hey, let's build a pocket calculator. However, multiplication is totally overrated - the user should be satisified if we implement addition, subtraction and division." You've got everything necessary anyway, but you're not making optimum use of it.

What I can believe is that the Sororitas is a model that is generally stripped down to get a compromise between power and mass-productability (well... at least a lesser degree of handcrafting) and, not to forget: size. The huge size of Marine Armour doesn't change things too much since Marines are hulking figures anyway - a Sororitas might still want to crouch behind cover because below that tough armour, they're still squishy humans.

So all in all, I consider the FFG version a lot more believable than the flat GW version made to fit a tabletop game with only limited requirements when it comes to precision.

And by the way: If we remain at Wargame scale, there's nothing wrong with the FFG version either - we know both Marines and Sororitas get a 3+ armour save. Carapace guardsmen get a 4+, Flak guardsmen a 5+. How does that translate into our beloved RP? Simple: Flak is generally AP3 and 4, Carapace 5 and 6 and Power Armour... 7 and 8. All armours have about two times their tabletop rating (well, upside down obviously). Sounds pretty accurate to me.

Cifer said:

Sounds right by me. Their relative scale is maintained. So there isn't much to complain about.

Continuing in that vein... Artificer armor is probably a 9 and Terminator armor a 10 plus "rosarius"-ish bonus.

@Cifer:

My version of how things are goes like this:

* All power armor is powered by artificial myomers/muscles/hydraulics to some extend. That is the defining thing of power armor.

* Both Adeptus Astartes and Adepta Sororitas power amor have the armored exoskeleton part made from the same ceramite, the best there is.

* Adepta Sororitas power armor has smaller batteries, shorter duration life-support capability and, most importantly, it only augments the wearers strenght enough that while wearing the armor the armor itself feels "weightless". It does not augment the wearers strenght any more than that because while the powered myomers do lend the wearer additional strenght to move her armored body it does nothing to the actual inertia of the armored limbs. Even if the wearer doesn't feel it, she is still swinging around several dozen pounds of ceramite each time she moves a limb and inside all that armor she is still human... if she tries to lift a car with the armor, she will dislocate and/or break limbs or spine.

* Adeptus Astartes power armor has huge power-cell which gives it long life-support duration but also powers its more powerfull myomers which enhance the wearers streght far beyond just negating the armors weight. A normal human wearing Adeptus Astartes power armor could theoretically lift a small car. In cold reality he would just break himself and burn down a few myomers in the process when the armor tried to compensate his failing body. Adeptus Astartes brother is not a human. His bones and muscles have been enchanced by genetic therapy and he has an under-skin exoskeleton supporting his own body with the black ceramite carapace. With the help of power armor he can lift a small car and, more importantly, his body can actually hold up the weight.

Thus, both power armors have AP8 (in fluff: same degree of armored protection ) but only Adeptus Astartes power armor enhances wielders streght beyond its normal limitations (in fluff: strenght enhancing abilities ) and only Adeptus Astartes power armor is equipped to work for weeks in hostile environment (in fluff: more advanced life-support systems ).

I could see this being true. If you notice the power armors in DH have a severely reduced power source than that of the Space Marines. Thus, I could see the Adepta Sororita toning down the power that the armor uses, which would in turn not allow the armor to function at pique efficiency, but would give an extended life to the power pack.

Polaria said:

There is also the fact that thickness of those plates can vary. You look at the images of Adeptus Sororitas and the armor plates and compared to a Astates the SoB's are much thinner. We're comparing the protective attributes of near form fitting armor to these big bulky plates, there is a big logic gap to say both are equal in protective capabilities while made of the same material. If the Imperium had the technology to make Sororitas patterns of power armor equally protective as Astartes patterns than space marines wouldn't wear what they do they would wear something less bulky or something more protective.

I like fluff, I like GW's fluff, but sometimes it doesn't make sense and can't meet the consistencies required to except the continuity of their universe and setting.

Polaria said:

Except that GW have also said that, due to all of it being canon, all of it has an equal chance of being misinformation, incorrect in it's entirety, correct "back then" (at the period of time the book is set, for those that are set in the past) but incorrect now, etc. That means that they've basically said that their "canon", as in the stuff specifically written by GW employees (and not BI, BL, or FFG) is just as capable of being incorrect.

So sorry, but GW themselves have said that their pre-established fluff is just as likely to be wrong as any BL or FFG product is, which means that they are all equal in relevance.

aka_mythos said:

Since Brother Sergeant Agamorr in "Purge the Unclean" wears artificer armour, we know that artificer armour is AV10 on the head, AV11 on the arms and legs, and AV12 on the chest. That might change when we have the Deathwatch core rules, but with the rules we currently have at our disposal, that is what Artificer Armour is.

aka_mythos said:

Actually there is a picture of Mk6 Corvus pattern power armor and what lies inside it.

When you look at it you can see that the actual armor plates aren't very thick at all. Most of the extra room inside Mk6 is taken up by cabling, life-support systems, myomers and other stuff which are present all around the armor, just under the plates. My logic is that this is part of that "strenght enhancement systems" and "advanced life-support" that are better in Adeptus Astartes armor.

When stuff like Skitarii issue Dragon Scale Power Armor in Inquisitors Handbook and so-called "normal" power armor in Dark Heresy rulebook is AP8, I really can't figure out a single reason why Adepta Sororitas armor should be immeadeatly inferior. Especially since I have not personally read any fluff (outside Ascension) comparing Adeptus Astartes and Adepta Sororitas power armor and saying Adepta have lesser armored protection.

I mean if you want to go "girls can't wear full power armor" -route you are, as a GM, allowed to make that interpretation. However, I really can't find much fluff outside the Ascension book "light power armor" supporting it. If all fluff is equally right/wrong I could easily say that Ascension -issue "light power armor" is made for less risky service duties and isn't the same as the full power armor described in Codex: Witch Hunters.

Polaria said:

In the real world tanks are classified as being armored to different degrees and often tanks are said to provide the same level protection even if the armor is distributed evenly or exactly the same way. The most common of those being thin rear, bottom, and top armor... as long as the other faces are heavily armored they provide similar levels of protection to a tank that might armor those points better. So if you change the metric by which you define the armor suddenly one looks a lot less worth while, such as throwing "mine resistance" into the mix. DH, RT, and DW use a different metric than 40k, and a broadly applied specification could in "reality " have many loopholes.

The quote is "Sororitas use a lighter less bulky power armor... armor does not increase the strength of the wearer... it provides them the same protection"... it doesn't say how or to what degree they are the same, beyond qualifying it with its less bulky and non-strength enhancing. In 40k it does provide the same level, but scaling it to a different game it can be different. In a hypothetical more abstract 40k, Sororitas armor might be a 3.2+ save and Marine armor a 2.9+ but because of rounding and practicality they are the "same".

I don't think there is anything wrong with women wearing full power armor, just not astartes power armor. Is sororitas power armor the same?-NO it isn't. And that's because by the only quotation describing it it's admittedly lighter. In 40k it provide the same 3+ but that is a less precise game than an RPG, so applying broad statement from one system to another make little sense.

In Inquisitor, the 54mm game, the difference between power armor was handled differently. While the base values for armor were the same the main difference between Astartes power armor and everyone else's was ablative armor added to different segements. The shoulder pads being a prime example of what was being represented by the system. The Ablative Armor would boost the over all value of the armor in a given body area, until damage was done to that region, after which the bonus was lost. This is another way that marine armor has been differentiated from other power armor. Going from that to DW its simplified to just being a +1AP over other power armor.

I know people who have wanted to go a step further, claiming it should really only be carapace armor based on how it look, but I that is just as lopsided as saying its identical in armor value.

MILLANDSON said:

When it comes to artificer armor, the idea is that its suppose to be a "masterpiece" in the classical sense, created by a techpriest or techmarine as piece to fully test his skill. To that end not every techpriest is a Leonardo Di Vinci. So there is more wiggle room to justify a wide degree of variation.

aka_mythos said:

When I put on my heavier service vest (in real life) thats not too far from it, to be honest. With two layers of cloth, several layers of kevlar and the large ceramic plate the thickness comes to 22mm (without clothes under it) and it IS form-fitting because it is designed to be tightened so as to be form-fitting. Actually its pretty much required, because in order to absorb impacts better that type of modern armor is supposed to be tight around body. Adeptus Astartes power armor isn't. Its an exoskeleton (outer supporting structure) with armor on top of it and that is why its much bulkier looking. When comparing the differences between form-fitting armor and exoskeleton fitten armor in real world an exoskeleton fitted armor needs to be thicker to offer the same protection than form-fitted one.

aka_mythos said:

Where is that quote from? Ascension? Because the sources I am using (the GW codexes) say nothing about "lighter". It only says Adepta Sororitas and Adeptus Astartes armors are made using the same technology and offer the same degree of protection.

aka_mythos said:

Erm... no. Yes, at least some Terminator suits have refractor fields (1st edition you could equip teminators with them on top of their normal save and the article that errataed Terminator armour in 3rd edition suggests this may be standard), but most of the protection comes from the sheer thickness and strength of the armour. It is a big step up from power armour. Going by Brother Sergeant Agamorr's artificer armour it should probably have something along the lines of 12 AP all over. Then a refractor field (rather than the rosarius) save on top of that if you have one.

That picture of Corvus armour also happens to come from a period when it gave a 4+ save and was basically carapace armour which didn't weigh you down.

Polaria said:

I think we have different ideas of form fitting. Most vests I've seen are not so form fitting as to have cut outs for female bits, while being as thick.

This all boils down to a symantic arguement on GW's use of the word "same." Is it same as in "identical" or same as is in "similar". This is the fine hair we're cutting. By appearance, by description, by the size, by user it is not truly identical. Thus we must go with the other deffinition that it is "same" as in similar. In being similar there is no requisite degree of semblance and can have differences. Thus in having the "same level of protection" they can be similar level of protection without being identical level of protection. I hang my hat on the "similar" but not "identical" arguement because there are a number of other things that clearly show them as not being identical.

Your point assert that despite all other things being dissimilar this very one thing is 100% identical. I say its closer to 93-94% similar but due to rounding has to end up no more than 87.5% because of the games scaling and need to establish hierarchy.

I'm not arguing it isn't power armor, I'm not arguing it isn't comparable. I'm just saying that two things can be the same with out being completely identical in protection. Just because fluff wise its the "same" doesn't meant its completely the same, just generally the same.

Here is the final point. If full blown astartes armor is an 8 and full blown carapce armor, that is so heavy you can't pack more armor on without an exoskeleton or penalty, is a 6. Carapace being comparable to person wear a full class IV body armor in encumbrance. What is a 7? Something has to be a 7 to maintain a continuum. Fluff and everything aside, if you looked at whats in 40k, saying "this is an 8 and this is a 6..." find me something inbetween. With the pedestal marine armor is supposedly on I would tend to want to put something beneath it rather than elevate some other 4+ armor comparable to carapace to a 7AP. Whatever is a 7 has to be assisted by an exo-suit of somekind, that makes it a form of power amor.

@borithan

I agree what ever AP its assigned represents only the armor and not the field. In the current fluff terminator armor is described as having a low level field, to justify the 5+ invulnerable save, and to differentiate it from artificer armor. From that view point if it weren't for the inclusion of the force field why would anyone ever want terminator armor as opposed to artificer armor. I realize that might not be reasonable or to your liking but I think if we were to differentiate "old" terminator armor (how the 40k rules used to be) from "new" terminator armor (how the rules are now), the first three models GW produced conceptually as terminators were instead called "Exo-suit" or "Exo-armor" and that could provide the naming convention and narrative explanation of why things changed.

I agree if the artificer armor is as he describes a 12 AP is appropriate for terminator armor. As I said I haven't played "Purge the Unclean" so I don't really know about the armor values from that. On face value they seem too high to me, then again it can supposedly survive being stepped on by a Warhound.

Also just as an aside, if there were a thing called the warp, that one could teleport through, or a reactor you'd want to walk through while its on, you need a force field of some sort to repel radiation and keep you from cooking. Radiation in this instance doesn't have so much to do with radioactive materials as just the free floating particles that are generated in the presence of intense power sources.

Personally I would put Terminator Armor at 14 for Arms and Legs, 16 Body, with the head at 12. I wouldn't bother with any separate power field rules, it would just complicate things. I would also add on a few other movement penalties to help with a little bit of balance.

While a great, inspirational image that I wish Black Library would capitalise on for a series of publications/artbooks, the Beaky orthographic cutaway is shown to be a bit problematic when you look at the helmet and the structure behind it. If the circular projections are meant to mesh together, the Marine isn't going to have a lot of space there for that pesky little thing called a cranium.

I really wish someone with some artistic talent would pull together a decent model. The only one who has come close (that I can mention) is Philip Sibbering, but I soooo don't agree with his Marine shape.

As the AV of Terminator armour? Last time I put some thought into it I was going to put it somewhere in the 150 range, with power armour (Mk VII) coming in at a respectable 75/50. Guess that means I would make it at least 16 in Dark Heresy terms.

Kage

@ItsUncertainWho I think its getting ridiculous on that terminator armor. Genestealers are still suppose to be able to pose a threat to a marine in terminator armor, at "14 for Arms and Legs, 16 Body, with the head at 12." They don't seem like as much of a threat as they should.

*cough* weapon damages, toughness bonus... *cough*

Kage

We know the stats of Ork Mega Armour, which is equivalent on the wargame scale to Terminator Armour - it has 14 on the body and goes downhill from there.

@Polaria

I mean if you want to go "girls can't wear full power armor" -route you are, as a GM, allowed to make that interpretation. However, I really can't find much fluff outside the Ascension book "light power armor" supporting it. If all fluff is equally right/wrong I could easily say that Ascension -issue "light power armor" is made for less risky service duties and isn't the same as the full power armor described in Codex: Witch Hunters.

I'd say it's made not for less risky, but for different service duties and for different wearers. The previews of Deathwatch established that what Marines do is essentially hit&run - never give the opponent a time to strike back. The Sororitas on the other hand side are a more regular force as I understand them, so once the enemy catches on there's a Battlesister army coming, what they'll likely do is break out the light anti-vehicle weapons. At that point I'd personally ask myself: What's more protective? AP 8 or AP 7 while being non-hulking and thus denying the enemy a perpetual 10% bonus? When it comes to straight warfare, I'd say not being hit counts for something as well.

"Normal" power armour may be superior for pure combat, but in war, I'd rather get a set of light if I can't stomach an anti-armour round as a Marine can.

aka_mythos said:

Based off of the Landsholm Genestealer in Final Sanction AP 16 in the body isn't that big of a deal.

They do 2d10+12 Pen 5, double Pen if more than 2 Degrees of Success on the attack, with a WS of 65. So minimum damage 14 pen 5, maximum 32 pen 10. With a couple of solid hits a Genestealer can slice through AP 16 with 8 Toughness no problem. If you add tearing to the claws there would be even less of an issue.

Besides, if I was a Genestealer I would be going for head shots. I prefer the soft tasty interior over the crunchy exterior of the Tootsie Pop.

I say RPG trumps outdated army book.

My 2 cents.

aka_mythos said:

I wrote about this in some other thread before. There are commercially available protective plates which are curved in right shape at the right points (yes, according to cup-size) but since most government agencies (including mine) want to save little extra there quite many females who wear body armor make do with dressing up in size XL (my workmates do exactly that) and end up looking like little turtles.

Anyway, it is a subpar solution since modern bodyarmor should really be form-fitting to offer maximum protective value.

aka_mythos said:

I don't really care much about how 40K stats compare to DW. In DW Marines are hell of a lot tougher than in 40K anyway. I was thinking more about the differences in technological levels. Sororitas/Astartes/Skitarii Power Armor is supposed to be the pinnacle of technology, a rare sort of relic which can hardly even be produced anymore. Carapace is the stuff everyone and they dog can get in sufficiently high-tech world. Thats why my logic goes like this:

Hive-world quality carapace AP6

Hive-world quality "light" power armor AP7

Sororitas/Astartes/Skitarii quality power armor AP8

You can up-armor hive-world quality AP7 into AP8 (as in DH rulebook) by making it a lot thicker, but unelss you can get access to best myomers and batteries the energy consumption will make its use very limited (as in DH rulebook). If we talk about scaling here, I think the scaling from 6 (carapace) to 8 (power armor) isn't enough to represent the technological jump. If you go by the DH rulebook and Ascension then you are basically saying that Sororitas don't have the best technology, but use the same line-produced, cheaper stuff than, for example, power-armored special troops of some hive-world X. Then again, Inquisitors Handbook also claims that Ebon Chalice sisters in Calixis sector don't use Godwyn-De'az pattern bolters but stuff that is basically equal to mass-produced IG bolters.

The problem seems to be that when FFG decided to make Sisters playable in DH they also "demoted" their level of equipment from "best there is" to "same as everyone else". I don't know. Maybe Calixis sector sisters have worse stuff than other orders. Maybe FFG made it on purpose to be "fair" for other DH classes, but that isn't really supported by any other existing fluff. Maybe they go by "OMG Marines are GOD, they gotta have everything better!" BL-line. Like I said, I don't know why, I just know it doesn't make muchs sense in light of all other existing fluff.

Polaria said:

By this I take it that you mean in comparison to Table Top gaming. If that is the case, then yes you are correct.

Fluff wise, I think that FFG has hit the nail on the head for how Space Marines are in the 40 lore.