what the hell is that? looking on mini adventure on support and astare power armor are not better in protection vs the civilian power armor of DH?

only 8 ac???

where the powerfull tech level of astartes equipement?

no one can imagine an astarte power armor not better that a civilian power armor, they are suppose to have the best quality the imperium can produce can suffer fire from standar weapons with very little chance tio be hit and may stop heavy weapons fire few time before been injured

seem astartes armor is realy nerfed vs all pc game and novels story where battle brother face tons of enemy and there armor stopping all shot from normal weapons and face danger only vs xenos or heavy weapons like plasma, hvy stubber , hvy bolter , autocanon...or when disproportion of number make them to finaly fall there armor suffering to much damage and finaly let hit pass there protection

this giive me the impression space marine gonna be very far away of the legendary power they have in WH40K universe weaker and be far less effective that what they are suppose to be "The Ultimate Warrior of the imperium"

Actually I think AC 8 is fine. Really.

Even the weakest of Final Sanction characters has toughness bonus of 8 and 20 wounds. That means a soak value of 16!

Lets imagine a platoon of 30 Imperial Guardsmen all firing at the Marine with their lasguns on autofire using DH/RT rules (not horde). Okay, these guys have BS 30 and semi-autofire gives them +10 to BS. So that 12 guys hitting him. With an average of 18 shots hitting. Normally lasgun can't penetrate total soak of 16 in any way, but lets allow the guardsmen to get Emperor's Wrath at damage roll of 10. Okay, out of 20 hits only 2 penetrate. These penetrating hits do an average of 3 to 4 wounds to our marine.

So, let me rephrase: If the marine is just standing there doing absolutely nothing to take cover or kill the enemy it takes a full Imperial Guard platoon more than 5 rounds of continous autofire to execute him... and remember, this was the weakest of the marines. What more do you want?

The astartes power armor has alot more special equipment built into it. It also suppose to have a significantly larger power supply, allowing it to stay in the field longer. The astartes power armor is also part of what amplifies a marines strength, so that is also a part of how it is more advanced. "Better" doesn't always mean its gained protection, just that it has more bells and whistles.

So it turns out that anyone who can afford power armour has access to the best armour in the Imperium, fair enough. Like a Space Marine is going to have stuff that an Inquisitor or Rogue Trader can't get the equivalent of.

power armour is as power armour does in ther game of 40k a sister of battle has power armour that gives her a 3+ save a marine get exactly the same so why should it differ for the rpg what makes a marine better is the black carapace which allows them to fully emurse themselves with thier armour and its machine spirit and gets them lotsa funky bells and whistles

Face Eater said:

Depends on your definition of best. If you are simply talking about best in terms of AP then yes, I guess anyone who can afford PA can get similar protection to an Astartes marine (but that neglects a lot of the additional features built into Astartes PA).

In terms of the best armour in the Imperium, I think even the most wealthy individuals would struggle to get a hold of artificier or terminator armour. Even if they did they wouldn't have the correct implants to enable them to wear it properly.

lord inquisitor revan darksoul said:

Because the RPG is more detailed, where as the tabletop game is standardised? The fluff has Space Marine armour as being better than Sister of Battle power armour. It's perfectly reasonable for the RPG to be different to the tabletop game.

Next you'll say it's not alright for Space Marine bolters to do more damage than "normal" bolters, because the tabletop game says they're the same (but the RPG states otherwise). If it works with bolters, why not armour?

Not to say I think that the armour is fine as is (though it was Armour 10 on the chest in my version of the PDF), but saying "the tabletop game has them the same, so they must be the same in the RPG" has already been proved to be incorrect.

MILLANDSON said:

fluff wise space marine armour is the same but as perviously stated they have the advantage of the black carapace and subdermal links allowing them the ability to fully imerse themselves in their armour something which no one else can do as they dont have the physical endurance needed to get black carapace

Nobody should argue that the marines in DW are not "tough enough". As said before, a normal marine has a 8 toughness bonus, coupled with 8 or 10 armor makes them the unstoppable things you described.

its a question on balance....i think the biggest thing to take into account is that DW will be the 3rd game in the series all of which are supposed to be able to cross over i plan on writting up a campaign where my players can pick thier characters from any of the books..... if DW space marines were completely true to fluff and were 1 man armies why would my players play anything else???? so they need to be balanced with the other 2 systems

Khouri said:

I think another aspect of it is that the strength boosting of a convential suit of power armor increases the wearers strength by 20... going from 40 to 60 or something like that... as opposed to the marine who's strength is boosted that much more beyond. It takes advanced tech to build something that can lift a car, its a whole other thing to build something to boost a persons strength to where they could knock over or toss the car. The armor the average wearer has and a marine has have different strength thresholds. Add to that there is more volume and mass to marine armor and the armor has to do more "work".

Thus once again their are more ways to be "better" or the best.

Going back to what Face Eater was talking about... I'll point out not all power armor in the Imperium originates from the Imperium. For example, Spyrer gangers in the Necromunda game wear different power suits that are effectively power armor. That technology has Tau origins, but obviously can't do all the things Astartes armor can. "Best" is subjective. The Abrams tank is the "best" battle tank in the world, but both the British Challenger II and Leodard tanks are better at some things. "Best" just means on average something comes out on top, it doesn't preclude certain other things from exceling. The best power armor, isn't even Astartes power armor, its artificer armor or terminator armor. Once again even the basic astartes armor has to do more than the basic human power armor.

One more thing, you are looking at base MK7 Aquilla (Eagle) power armour stats, which at this point has been in use since the end of the horus heresy (the first suits of MK7 were actually being distributed during the final battle on Earth), and at this point in M41 there is the new better MK8 Errant pattern armour that might have a better stat block (considering the MK8 now covers all external power cabling and has a high neck gorget to prevent the clamshell effect of the MK7 armours neck joint) also they haven't said whether or not but i don't why they wouldn't have Tactical Dreadnought (Terminator) Armour in the later levels which is far more superior to any of the base power armours even the new MK8.

I wouldn't be surprised if Terminator armour had somewhere between 10-12 AP rating with things like a Storm shield or rosarius giving a personal force field to help with defence. Also not including how terminator armour further increases the already massive strength of the space marine so far to be able to lift or topple battle tanks.

I actually think it'd be cool if FFG wrote rules for all the variants of armor Mk1-Mk8, not everyone uses Mk7.

If I were to come up with balanced rules for Mk8 armor, I'd say it has AP9 on torso, arms, and legs with all the same abilities as Mk7, but with some new rule representing it being more difficult to repair in the field. That way it has some disadvantage for being a fancier piece of unwidely adopted tech.

Alternatively I'd adopt rule similar to how GW's "Inquisitor" game handled power armor, where there were ablative plates that would provide a boosted armor value until damage was taken. Thus a Mk8 might have AP9 all over, but any time a wound is taken the area wounded, the armor value is knocked to 8, where it remains.

Terminator armors main bonuses to protection should come from its energy field; it is largely the same as power armor, maybe with slightly heavier plates, but the vast majority of its added protection comes from a force field generator. So I'd say AP10 with a built in "rosarius" equivalent forcefield. There would obviously be some significant movement penalties. At the point where terminator armor is necessary for the players, the GM better be throwing tanks, Carnifexe broods and the alike at the players. Deathwatch vs Norn Queen?

Terminator armor doesn't really provide a strength bonus, its just that it allows the marine to use close combat weapons that do, more easily.

@Lord Inquisitor Revan Darkscout

its a question on balance....i think the biggest thing to take into account is that DW will be the 3rd game in the series all of which are supposed to be able to cross over i plan on writting up a campaign where my players can pick thier characters from any of the books..... if DW space marines were completely true to fluff and were 1 man armies why would my players play anything else???? so they need to be balanced with the other 2 systems

They most certainly don't. In fact, I'd be disappointed if they were completely "balanced" - when it comes to straight fighting, there shouldn't be anyone better than a marine. On the other hand side, I wouldn't expect any of the marine careers or chapters to end up with a *4 Unnatural Intelligence bonus like the Dark Heresy Ascended Sage - or have an Inquisitor's authority over pretty much anything Imperial and non-space-marine-y (remember that the demo adventures repeatedly emphasised how the PCs were held in awe by the imperial commanders, but didn't technically have a point above them in the command chain). I doubt they'll be quite as good as a Vindicare at sniping stuff without it being known they ever existed either. And when it comes to infiltrating the local underworld, I'd put my thrones on the Desperado (IMO a poor name choice for a criminal mastermind who generally has a lot to lose) or Seneshal rather than the hulking supersoldier who can at best pose as a mutant.

But when it's about hurting people and breaking stuff, I expect the Marine to win.

lord inquisitor revan darksoul said:

There will always be other careers that are far more fitting than space monk. The Space Marines had better be pretty hard as nails but they will still struggle against a temple assassin or a psyker. Leading a crew into the unknown and trading for a fortune is always going to be be a job for a rogue trader and while a marine should be at least competant I'd still rather have a void master at the controls of a landing craft.

In some respects though it will be a bit like balancing an apple with an orange, the jobs suited to a marine are radically different to those of an Acolyte or an Explorer. It will be interesting what advice FFG give for running all three games as one.

From a balance standpoint I think AP 8 for Asartes armour is fine, as others have noted it pretty much allows the marine to ignore most of the small arms fire that would be leveled at them. If not, how much more do you up it by? Where does that leave the design space (artificer and terminator armours) and balance with the other systems if you do?

aka_mythos said:

Not True if you look to W40k lore a suit of terminator armour has a internal Fibre-musculature system that increases the users strength along with making it so that he wont be crushed by the armors massive bulk and in terms of durability standard power armour MK1-MK8 is primarily made of Ceramite Which is a high density ceramic material . While Terminator Armour is made of numerous layers of Ceramite, Plasteel and Adamantium (which hulls of Space Marine Land Raiders) are made out of. Terminator armour has no built in energy field thats why assault terminators carry storm shield which have a built in force field generator that can deflect most things that hit the shield and makes for one nasty shield slam. javascript:void(0);/*1279676791512*/ For more details on terminator armour

SgtPriad said:

No offense, as I too like to reference Lexicanum , but I would recommend checking out the most recent write up in the 5th Edition Space Marines Codex , page 102:

• " ... The ceramite plates can deflect most conventional attacks, whilst the Crux Terminatus mounted on every Terminator's shoulder serves as a ward capable of turning aside even attacks from power weapons or melta fire... A model in Terminator armour has a 2+ armour save and a 5+ invulnerable save... "

As to Storm Shields , well they have gotten better this edition; 3+ Invulnerable against ranged and close-combat. Lexicanum is a splendid reference point, but it is not kept as up-to-date as it could be, and they've been known to disregard published material as non-cannon.

-=Brother Praetus=-

MILLANDSON said:

I hate to break this out once more but GW Fluff > BL Fluff > FFG Fluff. Now lets see what GW Fluff says about Adepta Sororitas armor and weapons. Following are in-verbatim quotes from GW Fluff :

The power armor worn by the Battle Sisters of the Orders Militant is based upon the same archaic systems as worn by the brethren of Adeptus Astartes. It provides the same degree of armored protection, yet must forego the more advanced life-support systems and strenght enhancing abilities used by the Space Marines, as the Sisters of Battle are not implanted with the Black Carapace that allow the Astartes to interface fully with their own armor.

The standard issue weapon for all Battle Sisters since the Orders Militant were formed, the Godwyn-De'az pattern bolter has remained unchanged for millenia, largely due to its superior performance in comparison to other weapons of its class.

Now if you want to run a game set in Black Library-verse you are free to do so and give Space Marines stuff than is better in every and all ways, you are right within your freedom to do so. Just don't justify it with "fluff says" -argument when it clearly ain't true.

Cifer said:

agreed no one should be better at breaking stuff than a marine.... however orks can pretty much hold there own in a fist fight with a marine (granted its usually 2 or 3 on 1 there) but the orks from DH are not that tough although i do look forward to seeing a squad of marines in DW lay waste to entire swates of enemies

One way of dealing with Terminator armour would be rather than increasing the raw AP of it, instead increase the Unnatural traits it bestows upon a wearer, so Strength from x2 to x3 and Toughness to x2. This would avoid the need for power field rules (I really dislike how FFG ret-conned them in Rogue Trader) and mean that the Marine would be extra resilient, even against high piercing weapons like lascannon and melta weapons.

Also obviously throw in every possible helmet system upgrade, teleport beacon, an agility penalty (not on test but on the stat, so it affects base movement too), even bigger size increase etc etc.

Polaria said:

Incorrect. GW has previously stated that all published material is equal in the canon, and given that BL fluff and FFG fluff are both scrutinised by GW to ensure it is in fitting with the canon, it is entirely correct that "the fluff" supports that Adeptus Sororitas has armour that is not as good as Space Marine armour, because the FFG rules, which are able to be more accurate to to a greater variety of results from dice (compared to just 6 options on a normal d6), states that the Adeptus Sororitas armour is AV7, whilst Space Marine armour is AV8.

Given that the more recent rules (Ascension is more recent than the old Daemonhunters codex) and more in-depth rules state that there is a difference in protection between AS and SM armours, that would suggest that the wargame armour "being the same" is merely to simplify the tabletop game.

MILLANDSON said:

Quoted for truth. All FFG and BI 40k rpg products have GW copyrights on them, and should all be considered canon.

Ever since BI first published DH i have considered Light Power armour to be adeptus sororitas patter, as full Storm Trooper carapace technically has muscle-enhacing fiber-bundles built into it, allow them to carry heavier armour plates and power packs for their hellguns.

Astartes get AP8, Unnatural Strength x2 and the helmet suite.

Sororitas get AP7, +20 strength, and a helmet suite as provided.

Everyone else is lucky to get AP7 and crap all else to boot.

Well, at least in my games SM power armour HAS more armour points better Soritas´ as the nuns are wearing Light Power Armour...

I realy hope for variety of armours in Deathwatch. We have pretty much confirmed Scout Armour, TDA Armour and Mark VII "Aquilla" in Core Rulebook, they could add Mk VI "Corvus" and Mk VIII "Errant", alongside the Artificer upgrade in there and save Marks III-V, Fenris pattern, Templars variants, Runic upgrade and Blood Angels muscle artificer armour for player´s handbook.

Kasatka said:

Except that everyone who has ever read enough fluff will quickly realize that Black Library stuff especially has a huge amount of contradictory information and stuff that is clearly counter to all established fluff. This is because the GW people do not read each and every line of each and every BL novel and doublecheck all the itty-bitty details against earlier stuff. It would be unfeasible businesswise. What they do check is big things, like what happens to whole planets, races and universe as whole.

Sure, there are BL books that state Space Marines have the best stuff. Hell, most BL books are written on the premise that Astartes are gods who have best of everything and never make a mistake. Well... I'll save that rant to another day.

Anyway, as for the power armor we have several BL authors saying that Adeptus Astartes power armor is the best there is. We also have another BL author saying Adepta Sororitas power armor is the same as Astartes. Then we have GW author saying that they are not same but have same degree of armored protection. Then we have yet anothe FFG author who says adepta sororitas use "light" power armor. Now who should we believe?

You, as GM, can decide whatever you want but in my honest opinion the idea of "light power armor" is deviating most from other sources of established fluff. As for myself, even if I would take GW fluff = BL fluff = FFG fluff approach I would still say full power armor used by Adepta Sororitas has AP8. I base my opinion on the technical description of Adepta Sororitas equipment as given in Codex: Witch Hunters and take it, as techinical description, being more accurate than description of what someone perceived or thought in BL novel.

Kasatka said:

Except for a few things.

1. The Space Marines Unnatural Strength is inherent to the marine, and not a benefit of their armor.
2. All sources I have ever seen; including Ascension , seem to indicate that Sororitas Power Armor does not enhance the Sister's strength.
3. Per the Dark Heresy errata v.3.0 and Rogue Trader core mechanics (page 139) light power armor only increases the wearer's Str Characteristic by +10; and they also do not become Hulking .

Furthermore, I have never seen anything written in any of the source material to indicate that Stormtrooper Carapace has any strength enhancing or load-bearing functionality beyond, maybe, good weight distribution. A Stromtrooper's full kit; ball-park figure, likely comes in at roughly 50-60 kilos (or about 110-132 pounds using dirty conversion to standard); of that about 45 kilos (~100 pounds) is arms, armor and ammo. It's really not all that much, when you consider that modern combat troops carry around half that just on their tactical vests. Add some extra gear and field pack and it gets heavy quick.

But I digress. I believe the thread is titled "Astartes Armor " and not " How Bad *SS are Stormtroopers Really? "

-=Brother Praetus=-