My overlord just said that we are not allowed to know the number of cards in the overlords deck because it doesn't state in the rules that we ARE allowed to.

RollsDoubleSkulls said:

Oh for the love of f'ing god...are you SERIOUS?

Fine, then counter with this:

The OL is not allowed to know:

Any of your hero's stats, since no where does it say he is ALLOWED to.

Your hero's current wounds and fatgiue, since no where does it say he is ALLOWED to. It just says they are put in the play area next to your hero card, it doesn't say you have to reveal them.

Your hero's skill cards. All that is required is for you to put them face up where YOU can see them. It does not reference the OL, so he is therefore not allowed to see them by his logic.

Bottomline: The absence of rule does not make it an automatic that you can't do something. Sorry, but that is just your OL being an ass.

FYI, the deck has 36 cards in total for the base game.

The total number of cards in the overlord's deck is constant (for a given set of expansions); even if you're using treachery, he removes one normal card for each treachery card added, so the total is always the same. He can't realistically prevent you from knowing.

The number of cards remaining in the overlord deck is trackable, but I could imagine people might disagree about whether or not you should be allowed to count them during the game if you lose track. Personally, I allow it, because I'd rather spend my energy doing things other than tracking how close the overlord is to cycling his deck. If you're going to disallow it, though, then it should be disallowed for all players: there's certainly nothing in the rules that would give the overlord privileged information about the number of cards remaining in his deck.

Antistone said:

This.

The heroes can grab pencil and paper and write down every time a card is drawn or played, or you can save time and energy and just let them count the deck when they want.

While I would definitely allow the players to count the cards left in the OL deck, I would be careful to generalize that approach.

Would you allow a player to take notes during a Poker or Black Jack (or even Memory) game? Even in other boardgames I would regard it as highly irritating if every trackable information would be tracked by a player with means beyond his own brain.

In my experience we just look at the stack left to draw from and see how low it is. Sometimes we sit close enough to count the cards in the stack just from where we are sitting. Yeah, your OL taking his role to seriously.

Parathion said:

It sounds like you mean that you would be careful about generalizing that approach, or perhaps that you would be careful NOT to generalize that approach.

There are certainly games where it is intended that players should rely only on memory...though if you ever find yourself writing the rules for such a game, I would suggest that you explicitly state that, rather than assuming that players will just somehow know.

Oh, thanks a lot for the English lesson - but since you perfectly understood what I meant, I guess it was absolutely unnecessary...

I never came across a game with rules that say that taking notes is forbidden. Do the Poker rules used in casinos include such a statement?

In my gaming groups it´s a group consensus whether taking notes is allowed or not (and in almost all games it is not).

Sorry if I offended you, but I did not perfectly understand: I guessed at two different things you might have meant, and I had no inkling that you meant anything other than what you said until I reached the second paragraph.

I've heard that using electronic equipment as a memory or calculation aid in casinos is actually illegal (you could be arrested), and that counting cards purely by memory, while entirely legal, can get you kicked out if the casino notices (they're trying to make money, and they can choose to deny service to you even if you're not doing anything wrong).

And I know that some games that have explicit rules about what things you're allowed to count during the game and what you're not. For example, Dominion explicitly allows you to count the cards in your own deck, but not in your discard pile (unless instructed by a card); and I believe it explicitly allows you to look through the trash and see all the cards in it (but not to do the same for your discards).

Just go ahead and note every card he plays next time. That way you will know the total amount of cards in the deck for every session to come. And tell your OL to ease up, he is not being cool (because the guys at the FFG forum said so!).

By the way, knowing the exact composition of the OL deck will help you a lot. Important cards to know and track are 1x dark charm, 2x beastman spawn, 1x crushing block, 2x spiked pit, 1x paralyzing gas, and the chest traps. If you know they are not in the deck/hand anymore, you can play more freely in some situations.

Dominion is a bit of an exception in that regard, I think. Most games seem not to touch on the use of memory aids or the question of counting cards. I think it's often left to the individual game group to play in whatever way they feel comfortable.

Personally, I would allow counting the cards remaining in the OL deck, because I don't think that's really a big deal and I think it's way more trouble than it's worth to waste mental energy trying to remember a card count. And my group never actually bothers to count the cards remaining until the deck is pretty low, so it's not really a nuisance either. I would never allow any player to look through the discard pile to see which cards have already been played, though - if you want to track that, you need to pay attention and use your brain. My group wouldn't permit note taking on that, either. None of that is really based on the rules, though, it's just what we think is "right".

El Ravager said:

+1

Cause we on the FFG forum are super awesome cool!

-shnar

This really seems like maybe the OL incorperated this 'house rule' to the fact that it may have cleared up a time dillema with an irritating player who constantly forgets how many there were in the deck last turn and feels the need to have them counted each and every turn. Seems like this is ultimetly one of those issues that should simply be left up to each individual gaming group since it shouldn't be to impactual to the game very often. I mean honestly, if the deck is simply visible you can tell if he's running low on cards.

When I play as OL I announce how many cards are left in the deck when I get down to 5 or fewer.

Xiayose said:

Oh definitely, nothings more satisfying than seeing the heroes start squirming when I say tauntingly, "I only have 3 cards left..."

-shnar

Big Remy said:

+1