Ok, so we've had a little problem in the game that I GM, and I'm not quite sure how to answer the question; figured I'd pose it here.

A player psyker wants to use the Holocaust pyromancy power against a target wearing Crusader shield (from Ascension). The power suggests that it cannot be countered in any way, whereas the Crusader shield is specifically designed to counter such things. I'd appreciate any suggestions or clarifications. The rules for each are quoted as follows:

Holocaust (pg. 175 of the DH rulebook) "...The fires of a Holocaust always burn outward from you, dealing 1d10 Energy Damage per point of your Willpower Bonus to all creatures and objects in the area. This Damage bypasses Toughness Bonus and Armour...There is no immunity to the fires of a Holocaust, and Warp Entities, as well as other immaterial creatures, are burned as readily as the fleshbound. Those slain by Holocaust are killed forever."

Crusader Shield (from page 143 of Ascension) "...Crusader suppression shield s are designed for combating the malefic and warp-spawned powers, and are inscribed with hexagrammatic wards. These grant the wielder a +20 bonus on Tests made to resist any psychic power that directly affects him. Additionally, a crusader shield grants double Armour Points against damage-dealing psychic powers, and keeps its AP value against attacks with the warp weapon quality."

So you see my difficulty, I'd appreciate your suggestions. In any case, its a moot point since my player figured out another way to kill the fella, but I'd still like to know for the future. Thanks in advance.

Personally I'd treat Holocaust a warp weapon attack because it's effect was identical to warp weapon when Dark Heresy was released. But this is a case when you should contact FFG to ask them.

I would like to see their response.

I'd assume this one goes out to Holocaust, as it specifies that there is no immunity to it and every power in Ascension that has a vaguely-relating context specifies that no, it still doesn't protect you against Holocaust.

Cifer said:

Well, except that Hexagrammatic Wards allow normal armor values to apply to things like a Dæmon weapon with the Warp Weapon trait. So, I could see it applying similarly versus Holocaust as a possibility. I have to second Bilateralrope on the suggestion for asking for an official ruling on the matter, otherwise we could go round and round with our reasoning behind our points of view for several pages; which, isn't a bad thing, per se.

-=Brother Praetus=-

One for FFG to rule on I'm afraid.

Personally, I see it boiling down to whether the phrase "There is no immunity to the fires of a Holocaust" is a mechanical effect or just fluff describing the fact that warp entities have no special immunity to the flames. If the former there is nothing in the game, unless it has a specific exemption, that can counter the warp fuelled flames. As has already been said, Hexagrammatic Wards and their ilk are specifically used to counter this kind of threat and I would tend towards their ability to help reduce it but perhaps the Holocaust power is just supposed to be that good.

If it is truly without counter it makes entities with the power that little bit more dangerous.

I wonder if nulls are still exempt?

Khouri said:

Untouchables vs holocaust. Where a perfect defence (An untouchable is completely immune to psychic powers, etc) meets an unstoppable weapon (There is no immunity to the fires of a Holocaust).

You might be able to argue that Holocaust causes an indirect effect by heating up everything around the untouchable, meaning he will take some damage. But the indirect effect won't be as severe as a full holocaust, and it will have lost any defence bypassing ability.

On the other hand, if an untouchable has got within 6m of a psyker, that psyker is already in a bit of trouble.

Another question to throw at FFG.

Well, being the Pysker in question I am obviously more than a little interested in the ruling of this particular question... however the form to submit questions seems to have a bug. I get this error message every time I try;

error '8004020f'

/edge_faq.asp, line 59

Regardless, my biggest point of issue is the wording with the specific rules of Holocaust. It is, in theory, supposed to be undefendible, and I would therefore argue that hexagramatic wards are moot when facing it. However, as several people have stated, both rule sets contradict one another and we really could circle about the issue for days.

The point regarding the power vs Untouchables however I find highly interesting, and in which case I again would make a highly debatable question; are the fires conjured by a Pyromancer 'warp fire' once they leave the psykers body, or normal flame? After all, I can summon a fireball with no ill effects, but if I try and stick my hand in it once I've released the energy I'll get burned like the rest of us. Flameshroud excluding of course.

As far as Holocaust vs. a Null I would rule for the Null. For all game purposes a Null doesn't exist in the warp, so a warp power, no mater how powerful, should have no effect.

As for the Holocaust vs. Crusader question, I would say ask FFG. I could go either way but I would lean toward allowing the Crusader and almost anything Hexagramatically warded to provide limited protection vs the power. I am all for the Psykers having an "I win button", but even they need to have a bad day from time to time.

@Siranna

That the pyrokinetic flames are covered in general by a blank's status is IMO out of the question; otherwise, you'd have to make him susceptible to quite a lot of other things, among them telekinetic "push" powers - they generate kinetic force transferred to the target which is generally pretty mundane as well.

We had this situation (Untouchable vs. Holocaust) occur just a few sessions ago, when a Daemonhost activated the power and our Untouchable Assassin's instant reaction was to charge with power swords at the ready.

We ruled that the Untouchable's null field will protect him from the effects of Holocaust completely. Here's our reasoning: the wording of Untouchable says completely immune to all psychic powers and effects. An untouchable has no warp signature and therefore cannot be harmed by any form of warp energy. Obviously, Holocaust is warp fire because there can be no physical protection from it and it burns straight to the soul. However, Untouchables have no soul.

Obviously one has to extend an Untouchables "field of invulnerability" somewhat, otherwise most psychic powers would work on them. For example, the power "Push" could simply push on the Untouchables armor and therefore he would still be thrown back. Therefore we have ruled that the Untouchables equipment is likewise safe from the heat and fire of Holocaust or similar powers. This would also include the air he breathes, so no flame damage there.

The only exception would be if Holocaust begins to melt the floor and ceiling. I'm not entirely sure it would, being Warp fire and not normal fire so whether it generates any heat transfer into inanimate objects (it would seem that it only interacts with things that have a warp signature, hence ignoring armor, much like the Aether Lance or a Brilliant Weapon from D&D) is a subject up to debate.

Weighing in on the initial issue, we also allowed Hexagrammatic Wards to reduce incoming damage from Holocaust because we ruled that the effect is in every way similar to a Warp Weapon. Thus, a Crusader Suppression Shield would also function. Even with this modicum of protection, Holocaust is one of the deadliest powers around especially at higher levels. I don't know any player who can survive (Ascension Level) 18d10 damage (average 99) straight to their wounds. On a side note we also allowed this power to be dodged similarly to a grenade or other explosive, i.e. if your half-move rate can carry you outside of the effect then you may attempt a dodge.

EDIT: The power says it damages creatures and objects within the area. So I suppose the melting floor/walls/ceiling could become a problem rather quickly for an untouchable.

Thanks everyone for your replies and thoughts; I'm glad to see I'm not the only one stumped on this matter. I've tried to submit the question to FFG, however the server won't process my request. I'm not sure if the issue is on my side or theirs, so if someone else would try submitting the question, I think we'd all appreciate the answer. I've worded the querie as follows, but feel free to write your own:

I"'ll spare the details and get right to the question: Would a Crusader Suppression shield with Hexagrammatic wards offer protection against the Holocaust psychic power? Our debate on the matter comes from our ambiguity in reading the text, as follows:

Holocaust (pg. 175 of the DH rulebook) "...The fires of a Holocaust always burn outward from you, dealing 1d10 Energy Damage per point of your Willpower Bonus to all creatures and objects in the area. This Damage bypasses Toughness Bonus and Armour...There is no immunity to the fires of a Holocaust, and Warp Entities, as well as other immaterial creatures, are burned as readily as the fleshbound. Those slain by Holocaust are killed forever."

Crusader Shield (from page 143 of Ascension) "...Crusader suppression shield s are designed for combating the malefic and warp-spawned powers, and are inscribed with hexagrammatic wards. These grant the wielder a +20 bonus on Tests made to resist any psychic power that directly affects him. Additionally, a crusader shield grants double Armour Points against damage-dealing psychic powers, and keeps its AP value against attacks with the warp weapon quality."

Similarly, the question was subsequently raised as to whether or not the Holocaust power would be negated by a psy-null. Finally, as a last personal question, would the fires of Holocaust burn/melt objects and floors? It bypasses armour, however the text reads 'all objects' are burned. Thanks very much for your help."

A few folks have been having problems submitting questions to the developers, so it's not just you.

Would it be worth attaching this thread? Would the developer find it useful?

You might try going directly to the source: mmartin {at} fantasyflightgames.com - the rules question seems to do nothing but relay an email to that adress.

Would it be worth attaching this thread? Would the developer find it useful?

It's certainly worth a try - last time I asked something, I had to elaborate on the rules involved (Fearless vs Warp Shock) as well.

I'd give hexagrammatically warded armor and items their AP value against Holocaust by reading the flavor text as written. However, I would venture everyone should include the hexagrammatic wards text into their views also - hexagrammatic wards offer their AP against warp weapons because they "not only protect the wearer's body, but also their soul." Holocaust is dangerous because it burns across the warp as well as real space, thus bypassing any armor or toughness of the flesh as it directly attacks the soul.

It also works as a (very light) level of balance - when talking about Crusader Suppression Shields we are dealing with Ascension, Holocaust does 1d10E per point of WPB. You can roll a rank 1 psyker and have a WPB of 6-7, let alone when one gets to Ascension and they have unnatural willpowers. Even just speaking of a WPB of 6, thats giving a psyker a 6d10 damage roll while Crusader suppression shield gives them.. What, an AP of 8 against it? Its really not all that bad.

I submitted a question, and to my surprise, received this eloquent and thorough set of replies from Mack Martin, associate RPG producer at FFG.

I'll post our entire conversation below. It was most illuminating... I recommend reading it to anyone who's interested in DH, not just this particular question:

What the flying hell? Is it just me, or does this forum not allow copy-pasting text into it?

Dork Wonderer said:

Most illuminating indeed.

Srsly, it does allow it: you have to paste it into a pop-up window that opens when you press ctrl-v and then you click the okay button.

Alex

Do you have pop up's enabled?

ak-73 said:

Yeah that anticlimax was quite funny wasn't it? :Þ

Anyway, now that I know the ARCANE and MYSTICAL ways of pasting DATA into the forum .... here goes:

Here's the original question that I sent in ... I'm not used to companies responding to this sort of thing, so I just hurriedly typed something.

Rule Question:
A lot of people are confused with the holocaust power, apparently ....

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=99&efcid=3&efidt=351694&efpag=0

I'm in several DH groups and we don't know what to do with it. Does it go through walls or not? Or is the psyker perhaps summoning a sphere of flame around him, teleporting the fire into existence on 
the other side of the walls?

Furthermore, does it work on untouchables? Does it ignore hexagrammatical wards? Force fields?

... You're missing the response. (I hate this forum software as well. **** you, FFG, fix it!)

Nah, I didn't miss the response... I just decided to post it as many posts rather than one WTFlong post ;-Þ ... Anyway here's Mick Martin's reply:

Salutations,

Amazed at the quality of the response, and slightly embarrassed that I didn't put any work into the original question, I replied with the following:

Mick Martin then replied with:

Some tough questions there:

A) There is no precedence in 40k to really give the soul a location. The
soul is an ephemeral concept and the answer basically boils down to
"Both, Neither, It doesn't Exist, 48 and West".

B) Either! This is really the type of question that is up to the GM to
describe. Whichever the GM feels is most appropriate to his campaign is
the way it works. I have always described it as a wave of fire that ignores
all boundaries (except warp shields) that washes out from the psyker.
However every psyker can be different, and if one of my players wanted his
Holocaust to erupt from the ground, or explode inwards towards him or
some such I would have no problem with it. We are talking about powers
that by definition defy logic, I think you are trying to apply real world
physics to something that, but it's nature, does not obey those laws.

C) The issue here is the "some people". This isn't something that needs to
be absolute across all games. If the game I run at my house has psykers
ignoring walls with holocaust, and yours at home doesn't, that's perfectly
fine. The "There is no immunity" refers to immunity to FIRE and HEAT.
Thus Resistance Heat does not help against Holocaust. It also ignores
armour and toughness, which means walls would be little help. However,
anti-psychic abilities should still work, so a shield with Hexagrammatic
warding should still provide some protection.

Whichever description of how the power works that the GM feels is
dramatically appropriate to his game is the correct one. In my games
Holocaust actually ignores most mundane items. It is a wave of
psychically charged flame that washes out from the Psyker. However,
when a Tzeentch cultist sacrificed himself to use the power against the
Acolytes at a dramatic moment, it was a wave of oily translucent flame
that nearly destroyed the acolytes vehicle, forcing them to crash land. Both
are absolutely correct and dozens more interpretations can be viable.

I know it can be frustrating, but that is actually how it is intended to
function. The warp is UNKNOWABLE. By attempting to set in stone how
it functions we would be failing to properly portray it in the game. It's total
unpredictable nature, it's disobedience from any logic and the esoteric
questions such as "where is the soul?" is what makes the warp so
dangerous and feared!