So, I've been giving it some heavy thought, and I decided to make some different heroes. For now, I'm going to be making notes here, until I get to my other computer to actually write them up. Feel free to go over the ones I post, and give feedback that might help out.

Alena Wisp

Wounds: 10

Fatigue: 5

Armor: 1

Movement: 4

Traits: 1 Fighting, 1 Ranged, 1 Magic

Skills: 2 Subtlety, 1 Wizardry

Hero Ability: You cannot wear armor. During the overlord's turn, you may spend 1 fatigue to set a dodge action on yourself. Whenever you dodge, you may have dice rolled an additional time.

Conquest Value: 2? (Can't remember off the top of my head the value for 10 Wounds 1 Armor)

Armor value at only 1, and yet not allowed to wear armor? I think this character is... doomed.

'Dodging requires 1 fatigue' is meant to balance up the chance of 'double-dodging'? What if this hero or its ally gets a Leadership skill? Permanent double-dodge ftw? Its attacks are spread out too, which means it is fairly weak in its attacks.

Tadask Nezerull said:

That's because there's no such thing as 10 Wounds in the editor

But don't let that put you off. It's perfectly fine to do a 10 Wounds guy, just scale it accordingly with other stats of the character.

P.S: Subtlety should be spelt Subterfuge.

Putting balance aside...rolling your attack dice three times for every attack on this hero the entire game seems like it could get old really fast.

I agree with Antistone. The character isn't broken by any means (if anything she looks too weak) but the constant re-rolls will get annoying fast. And the player who runs her WILL make the OL re-roll as much as possible, given her pitiful defenses. If not, it'll be too easy for the OL to kill her and eventually earn all the CT he needs to win.

Perhaps an alternative (and this is just off the top of my head, so it may bear some analysis:) "Alena has Stealth. At the end of your turn you may spend 1F to place a Dodge order. If Alena has a Dodge order, she always gets first option on whether or not to re-roll dice on attacks that affect her. Alena may not equip armor."

It seems to me that the whole idea of this character is someone vulnerable who can't wear armor, but whose special ability gives her fighting chance anyway. Personally I'd allow her to wear armor, but I've left that restriction in for the sake of the argument. This hero ability gives Alena an edge on her dodges (in that she always chooses first on the re-roll question - this allows her to pre-empt Aims, so it's an ability worth having.) The inclusion of Stealth provides an extra 1/3 chance of the enemy rolling an X without requiring us to break the "only one re-roll" rule. And really, with a static value of 1 Armor, X's are the only thing that will save her anyway. Any roll that hits is going to hurt badly. Lastly, requiring her to spend the fatigue at the end of her turn instead of during the OL's turn is just to avoid the cheese of waiting until the OL attacks to use it. It's not broken the other way, but really, saving 1F each turn shouldn't be that hard, so just spend it and be done.

Steve-O said:

It does? That's not what I would have guessed from reading it. Aim and Dodge normally cancel out, so that no re-roll takes place at all; getting "first option" when neither player has any options doesn't make sense. It sounded like you were giving her the ability to always be the one who chooses which dice are rerolled when multiple players dodge the same attack. Which...well, it's not worthless , but it only matters if the heroes disagree or if you're dodging the attack of another hero.

If the intent was to negate Aims against her while preserving her Dodge re-roll, I'd say something like "While you have a Dodge order readied, attacks that affect you cannot be Aimed."

Hmm... Revising the hero ability on her real quick, after looking over some things. Also adjusting her armor limitations a bit.

Alena Wisp

Wounds: 12

Fatigue: 6

Armor: 1

Movement: 5

Traits: 1 Fighting, 1 Ranged, 1 Magic

Skills: 2 Subterfuge, 1 Wizardry

Hero Ability: Alena cannot wear armor that prohibits the use of runes. Whenever Alena dodges, she gains Stealth. During the Overlord's turn, Alena may spend one Fatigue to place a dodge order.

Conquest Value: 2

Revised her Hero Ability according to replies (To what made more sense, and less annoyingness) and adjusted her stats some, so she's less squishy, and a bit less underpowered.

Tadask Nezerull said:

She is now overstated (15 instead of 12-13 average) and undervalued CT wise (12/1 should by 3CT, especially with an awesome defensive ability.

Not wearing armour that prohibits runes is a fairly minor thing when she is unlikely to wear such armour anyway due to it slowing her down.

Stealthy dodges are exceptionally powerful (approx 85% misses) and spending a single fatigue for a dodge (effectively an entire extra half action) is extra-ordinarily powerful anyway - that alone is basically the equivalent of Tahlia's ability, universally recognised as one of the best around.

Suggestions:
1. Drop Fatigue to 4 - she still has good stats but not ridiculous ones. It also reduces the utility of the way-to-cheap dodge option, though not yet enough.
2. Either make the dodge cost 2 fatigue (remember she is also reduced to 4F) or make it dodge a single attack rather than place an order (which affects all future attacks this turn as well)
3. Change CT to 3.

Having 1/1/1 trait split is not great, but nowhere near bad enough to balance all the other things screwed up with her. Her role will be 'runner' anyway and a power pot fixes all trait issues...

I do appreciate the feedback, and I think I'll do most of my characters in this way from now on. As for power potions, I didn't think of them because I just recently learned about them (I JUST ordered AoD, WoD, and RtL today). I'll make some adjustments to her that should balance her out a bit more. Overall she's meant to be a weak character, wounds and armor-wise, and is meant to avoid attacks, rather than take them in the first place. She's VERY weak against traps, don't forget, and just a few could be enough to kill her.

Alena Wisp

Wounds: 12

Fatigue: 5

Armor: 0

Movement: 4

Traits: 1 Fighting, 1 Ranged, 1 Magic

Skills: 2 Subterfuge, 1 Wizardry

Hero Ability: Alena cannot wear armor that prohibits the use of runes. Whenever Alena dodges, she gains Stealth. During the Overlord's turn, Alena may spend one Fatigue to place a dodge order against one attack, or three to place dodge orders against all attacks until her next turn.

Conquest Value: 2

Debating lowering her Conquest by one, and adding "When an attack misses Alena, put a Black Curse on her."

Corbon said:

It's not clear whether "that alone" is supposed to refer to Dodge for 1 fatigue, or Dodge + Stealth for 1 fatigue.

I'd say the former is definitely not the equal of Tahlia's ability, since Tahlia's ability doesn't cost fatigue, moving your speed is more consistently useful than getting a Dodge order, and moving on the overlord's turn is an unusual effect with potential for weird tactics.

I believe Dodge + Stealth is only 69% miss chance (dropping to 44% with an Aim), not 85%, but it's still very good. That level of protection is maybe roughly on par with the Elven Cloak, a gold-level armor (arguably an overpowered gold-level armor). Though, of course, if you're wearing an Elven Cloak, you still have the option to drink an invisibililty potion and place a Dodge order with a Ready action.

It's powerful enough that if a hero only has it some of the time, everyone will probably need to make major changes to their tactics based on whether he has it or not on the current turn, which could make it tricky to balance. Maybe you could assume the hero is going to try to use it every turn, so he's effectively degenerating 1 fatigue/turn, with the penalty that if he can't (or won't) pay for it, he gets a giant bull's-eye painted on his chestin which case, the hero's conquest value need to reflect someone who has a free gold armor all (most of) the time, in addition to any regular armor you allow him to wear. Alternately, you could give it a high enough cost that the hero can't realistically use it all the time, and then it's just a panic button, not a primary defense.

Tadask Nezerull said:

No, she's not. She's stronger against traps than most heroes, actually, with a good wounds/conquest ratio (armor doesn't matter against traps) and an extra incentive to wear the kind of armor that actually helps against traps (Tunic / cloaks). A hero that is weak against traps is one with a high wounds/conquest ratio and an incentive to wear heavy armor; Brother Glyr, for example, has 8 wounds, is worth 4 conquest, and has high armor but low speed (incentivizing heavy armor). Traps are probably at least three times as effective against Glyr as against your hero (2 wounds per conquest vs. 6 wounds per conquest).

I have no clue how you got the idea that she's weak against traps.

Without armor she is, but once you take into account any gear she may get, then she's not so much. It sounds like a key factor here is her defensive abilities compared to her Conquest, so I think I have a good fix.

Alena Wisp

Wounds: 12

Fatigue: 5

Armor: 0

Movement: 4

Traits: 1 Fighting, 1 Ranged, 1 Magic

Skills: 2 Subterfuge, 1 Wizardry

Hero Ability: Alena cannot wear armor that prohibits the use of runes. Whenever Alena dodges, she gains Stealth. During the Overlord's turn, Alena may spend one Fatigue to place a dodge order against one attack, or three to place dodge orders against all attacks until her next turn. Whenever an attack misses Alena when she dodges, put a Black Curse on her.

Conquest Value: 2

That should solve the problems with her conquest being too low when she dodges, and keep it from being real high if she's killed while in a lapse of fatigue, and will make players consider using the Dodge as more of a panick button, rather than continually using it.

Antistone said:

i) Tahlia's ability might not cost fatigue, but it also only operates when she has a guard (mostly when she declares a ready action). Alena's ability works any time , and she only pays for it if she needs it.
ii) 1 fatigue is a cost, but not a high one, especially not a high one for a very high fatigue character.

Tahlia gets an extra half action at no cost some of the time. Yes, she can do some cool things with it, but she doesn't get it all the time and sometimes simply has to do other things.
Alena gets an extra half action at minimal cost (1/6th her fatigue at the time of comment) any time she wants it - only paying the cost if she needs it. The individual action is not quite as good, but I do think that the overall utility is comparable - especially if it comes with a free effectiveness multiplier (stealth) .

Yeah, 69%. I didn't both to do the math again and for some reason had 84% in my head. Sorry.
Still, that's less than 1 attack in 3 that will actually hit. You still basically have to make double the number of attacks that you would on a normal hero in order to kill this one.

@Tadask
Its "Curse token", not "Black Curse" (Black Curse is an ability).
I don't think this is a good solution because the OL could easily put 3 or 4 misses on her when she is dodging balloning her CT value out temporarily. Heck, if I was OLing I'd be trying to mass spawn (many weak creatures like Kobalds) and aim everything at her. Many weak attacks will actually be more valuable as misses placing a Curse Token on her rather than doing a wound or two. She will die eventually, and probably worth 6+CT as often as not...

I'm still not sure why you are resistant to making her 3CT?
Ispher and Shiver are both 12/0s for 3CT - both have special abilities that increase their survivability somewhat.
I think free stealth whenever dodging with the ability to put dodge orders on without a ready action, is a massive defensive boost (much greater than Ispher's, which is drip feed or Shiver's, which only helps against a very limited selection of monsters). Like I said, it means the best part of double the normal number of attacks are required to kill her.
It also cuts down on the amount of card text required, a not inconsiderable side issue.

Alena Wisp

Wounds: 12

Fatigue: 5

Armor: 0

Movement: 4

Traits: 1 Fighting, 1 Ranged, 1 Magic

Skills: 2 Subterfuge, 1 Wizardry

Hero Ability: Alena cannot wear armor that does not allow the use of runes. Whenever Alena makes a Dodge, she gains Stealth. Alena may spend 1 Fatigue to have an opponent reroll her choice of dice on one attack, or 3 Fatigue to set a Dodge order.

Conquest Value: 3

Decided to make her 1 Fatigue ability less useful, so it's less good compared to her more useful ability, and to encourage her to use an actual dodge order, rather than just dodging a single attack almost every round. Also, took everyone's advice and made her a 3 CQ. I wasn't aware there were already 12/0 Heroes with 3 CQ. At any rate, she could use some playtesting, and I'll have my friends sit down and help me with it some time. Also, as a note, I do not have a Stealth die, so I'll be using a d6 for testing, with the 1 and 6 as Misses.

Maha and Mura

Wounds: 6/6

Fatigue: 3

Armor: 2

Movement: 4

Traits: (Maha) 2 Ranged/(Mura) 2 Magic

Skills: (Maha) 2 Subtlety/(Mura) 2 Wizardry

Hero Abilities: (Maha) Twinsouled (Maha and Mura). Whenever Maha uses a ready action, he sets two orders. (Mura) Twinsouled (Maha and Mura). Mura can equip a rune that takes both hands as an other item. She must choose between any rune and her weapons when attacking.

Conquest Value: 4

The Twinsouled ability: When a player chooses one hero with Twinsouled, they also choose the other hero associated with the Twinsouled ability. Heroes with Twinsouled do not die unless both heroes stated in the Twinsouled ability reach 0 wounds. Heroes with Twinsouled may act independantly as two seperate heroes, but only count as one. Heroes with Twinsouled cannot train unless the other hero also trains. Heroes with Twinsouled have seperate inventories, and use seperate skills. Heroes with Twinsouled must be in town at the same time, or in the dungeon at the same time.

Another idea I had, involving two heroes that act as one. While weak individually, they should balance out to be about as good as a normal character. As it is, I figure they should be worth a bit more than a 12/2 Hero, since overall they are better. While they are weaker individually, and therefore more prone to being overwhelmed, they are more powerful as a team. I had to design a new ability to account for wording space. Gonna need a lot of help balancing the two of them, since I'm not a veteran.

Is the dodge order placed during her own turn? Can she spend 1 fatigue to dodge a single attack after the dice are rolled, or must she declare she is dodging before the attack (but after the attack is declared) ?

She can use the ability any time, so she can even Dodge against Dark Charm attacks. Seemed only fair. Naturally, you cannot decide to dodge after a roll is declared, but if you have her 1 Fatigue ability already down, you can choose not to have the opponent reroll dice, in favor of another opponent.

Edit: Correction, she can use her 1 Fatigue ability ANY time damage dice are rolled against her.

Alright, got Alena, Maha, and Mura all done, and I'm posting a few other interesting character ideas. I intend to playtest them ASAP.

Tadask Nezerull said:

Yes, this sort of thing is very messy to try and sort out (so messy that I don't think it has been done successfully before, and possibly can't be done well).

1. A hero can only have one order readies at a time. You need to state that Maha can place ready orders on Mura.

2. CT value - 4 means that when they die the heroes will lose 8, not, I think, what you intended. There is also the issue that they can be abused by sending one to do suicidal things and not care, while the other remains heavily protected in the rear. Eg Maha with Acrobat/Swift/Burglar type combo (2 of) sprinting ahead and cutting down spawn locations, opening chests and doors and basically able to ignore traps and monsters etc because he can't be killed. Meanwhile Mura with Spiritwalker and Boggs hides at the back, preventing rear spawning and practically impossible to get to...

3. Training in Vanilla happens during a turn. As does moving between dungeon and town. Therefore it is not possible for Mura and Maha to both train, or both be in the same location (town/dungeon) at all times, if they ever want to train or move between town and dungeon. In order to do this you need to efectively force one of them to go first, and if the other does not follow in it's next turn have something happen to reverse the action of the first one.
Eg. Maha may only, and must, Train if Mura has trained during the current round (or week in Advanced Campaigns). If Maha does not Train in the same round Mura has trained then Mura loses any training tokens or skills she gained during that round.
Maha can only, and must, use a glyph during the same round that Muru has already used a Glyph. If Maha does not use a glyph during this round then Muru is place on the nearest active glyph to Maha at the end of Maha's turn if Maha is in the dungeon.
it is messy and complicated, isn't it? And still abuseable - if they both are in town and only Muru come out, then Muru can do it's full turn and then get sent safely back to town at the end of Maha's turn!

My best advice is just not to go here. You are messing with spawning opportunities with an extra hero as well, which is a very significant but difficult to quantify effect.
Even if you resolve the first three issues above, there will be more and these twinned heroes will most likely be somewhat overpowered. The certainly are at the moment.
Monsters have successfully done this sort of 'twinning' thing several times (several Advanced Campaign bosses), but they have far, far fewer pitfalls in doing so than heroes do, having set skills, set 'weapons' no training, no potions, no cash split from chests etc, clear CT values, fixed starting locations and limitations of movement, no glyph use, no anti-spawn function, etc etc.

Drazon : I really think you are branching out waaaay too far here. His CT is definitely too high, but appears to try and balance out with a huge conglomeration of special abilities and badly underpowered stats. The more you do this, the more difficult it is to get the balance right (and the more the balance will vary radically in different situations anyway, so you simply can't get it right).

Nai : Not bad. 8/1 is usually 2CT but can be 3 CT and is balanced with a strong recuperative ability.

Rania : Another one where the concept is so far divorced from normal heroes that it is difficult to judge balance.

Elena : More reasonably balanced now. I preferred the 1 Fatigue for 1 attack or 3 fatigue for a dodge order variant, but that is personal.

Corbon said:

Drazun : I'll see about balancing Drazon some. The biggest drawback for him is his incredibly low movement, which causes him to be unable to outrun all but the slowest enemies, making him fodder for Skeletons and other ranged attackers without backup. The idea of giving him the ability to breath was more flavor than anything, but I think I'll probably remove that in favor of a different ability.

Nai : Just a small idea I had, mostly. Nai's intended to be fairly weak and easy to kill, but only if you can get her in one shot.

Rania : I intend to playtest Rania. In the end, I'll probably end up giving her a different ability, since her existing one is so out there.

Elena : The biggest problem with having both was text room, I'd have to have given up one of her other abilities. I opted to her minor one.

Maha and Mura : I have a new solution for the two of them, which I'll be posting in a minute.

Before anyone asks, they count as one hero for all intents and purposes except explained on the card (They act independently, and have seperate inventories.)

I addressed a lot of the problems that were noted about them, particularly their complicatedness. Hopefully this should be easy enough to understand. I figured 12/1 with 4 Conquest was fair for them, since they're a potentially very powerful character, yet they can also be a huge hindrance to the party (If exposed to AoEs, in particular). As with anything with such an unusual ability, they'll need some playtesting, and extensive reviewing.

Oh, and kudos to anyone who gets why they have their actual hero ability. Traps cost the Overlord 2 more Threat to play.

So I found this nifty way to change the font size in Iam's editor, meaning I got to fit all of Alena's ability in, with a few rerulings.

I completely reworked Drazun to make him a healer type, relying on the surges he rolls, a completely new concept in my views. I also did something similar for Rania, though I made her focus on thwarting the Overlord.

And a new hero. She seems fairly balanced, but I wouldn't be posting here if I didn't want some opinions from more experienced players. She doesn't gain off-hand bonuses for wielding a two-handed weapon in her off-hand though...

"Tarracka may pay 1 fatigue to have her attacks this turn gain Sweep."

If you think that's balanced, then I've never played whatever game it is that you're playing.

Was thinking of increasing that to a cost of 4, meaning it's that, or use Fatigue for other things (Unless you pull a fatigue increasing card). Whatdya think? I was half asleep when I made her, and she seemed balanced until I thought of how many things she could kill doing that.

Tadask Nezerull said:

No. This is a fundamental designing flaw. 'Power' does not balance with CT cost. That route gives you overpowered characters that either crush the OL if he can't get to them or he gets to them and wins too easily because of it. Either way one side gets shortchanged in the game. Or you get really weak heroes that are boring to play.

CT is the points scoring mechanism and CT cost is related only to how hard it is for the OL to score points by killing that hero. Sometimes you get a 'true value' CT that is between integers, and it can be pushed one way or the other by power adjustments, but these are fractional changes only.

These boys, at 12/1, should be costed at 3CT. 4 is just too easy for the OL if each is totally individual, let alone too easy when the OL has two options to get at them (and double options with AoE).

Their bonuses are more actions, better LOS -> spawn nerfing (which is mitigated, possibly down to zero value, by reduction to 5 spaces). Their disadvantages are very weak attacks, more protection required (need to buy more of the limited armour, shields and weapons etc and more difficult to shield two spaces with tanks etc than 1 space) and that they share fatigue, especially, as well as wounds.

Revised Drazun:
Well, he is now badly overcosted in CT. Why did you remove the extra armour and Ironskin? They are the standard 'balance' for 'cannot wear armour'. As it is he is far too weak for 4CT. 3CT and I still wouldn't use him despite the very very strong abilities because he is just cheap CT for the OL.

Revised Rania:
CT. 2.
The abilities are extremely high powered. Any one of them.
How do you remember 'spawned' monsters? After the spawned beastmen war party has intermixed with the dungeon area beastmen... Requiring 'memory states' is against the way this game works. If you see a difference or can't mark a difference with a token, there is no difference.

Tarracqua:
Slightly over costed in CT, should be a 2, really. Not a good idea, as explained elsewhere, to bump up CT to balance other overpowering.
Fatigue cost of 4 for the sweep, or it. One other hero can do something similar, for 3 fatigue (which is his entire ability), but he only has 1 dice in melee, so it is much weaker, and he also only has 3 fatigue, so it is an all or nothing effort.

Corbon said:

Drazun: I completely spaced the Ironskin and extra armor for the Cannor Wear Armor, honestly. x.x

Rania : Gonna probably make her abilities scream less "I'm gonna fk up the overlord" and more "I'm gonna mess with monsters" I think, by applying Stuns, Webs, Burns, etcetera, and similar stuff. If I keep the despawn, I'm gonna change it to non-named creatures

Tarracka: I've noticed most of the problems with Tarra already Her CT was 3, because originally she was gonna be 12/2, then I changed my mind, and forgot to adjust it. I'll get to it ASAP.