How is it Guardsmen don't have Wall of Steel?

By TempestSatori, in Dark Heresy Rules Questions

Posted at

Inquisitor sapiens potensque said:

Friend of the Dork said:

So for me it makes sense that they left it out. It may be that it's included in the Storm Trooper package in Ascension.

Well this is not the tabletop game. Unless you're playing Deathwatch there are no Space Marines to compare them to. And although I agree IG are not melee specialists, they are combat specialists and should be the equal or better in purely combat talents compared to Scum and Assassins.

This is a matter of balance more than anything, as IG are severely lacking in skills and talents that are not combat-oriented. In most DH situations the skillset of the Scum and Assassin (and most other classes) are much more useful than the Guardsman, so I think it only right they get to be at least as good as them in combat. Wall of Steel fits (especially since Guardsman also encompasses Feral tribal warriors and Feudal Knights). Assassin's Strike does not fit, and neither does Decieve +20.

If you look at the way they're designed, I think it's clear that Guardsmen were designed so that the player would spend a big hunk of their XP on Sound Constitution and characteristics increases. And that cheap Strength increase does make them better, simply because they can carry a lot more gear.

Strength also helps alot in melee. AFAIK there is no clear cut Strength requirement for heavy weapons except for the actual carrying capacity (which IIRC is influenced by TB too). And really it doesent take much to be able to carry 30-50 kg equipment. Then there is Bulging Biceps of course.

This does not change the fact that I think the Guardsmen are missing out. Wall of Steel fits for me thematically as well. For a melee oriented Guardsman, not having this talent means they miss out of something important that high strength and sound constitution cannot make up for, the ability to dodge/parry several attacks in combat. And in my mind the Guardsman is more a parryer than a dodger.

Posted at

TempestSatori said:

@ Mister Zipangu

I was talking about giving it to Guardsmen at rank 8. Which while I agree with you that Fear tests can happen too often, and get ridiculous, but by rank 8 a Storm Trooper can buy Fearless, so no crying in a ditch for Beowulf only the merciless and hateful slaughter of the enemies of the Imperium.

True.

Now instead Beowulf of the Massive Blunt Head Trauma will pick fights with Traitor Reaver Titans, Kay-ohss Speess Meehreenss, Tyranid assault class creatures, his own Inquisitor who dares give him orders, and all the potentailly helpful scum and contacts who might mutter something half-way annoying. All because of the same flaw that left him soiling his pants in the ditch before.

I almost think Beowulf would have preferred the ditch, but at least the player can now participate in combat scenes - Until the Reaver Titan steps on the character.

I, personally, stay the hell away from Fearless, since the flaws by far outweigh the benefits.

I would consider asking my GM for 80 IP at game start if I was made to play a low WP char. At least I could have fun playing the crazy. And few insanities are as handicapping as Fearless.

Posted at

Mister Zipangu said:

TempestSatori said:

@ Mister Zipangu

I was talking about giving it to Guardsmen at rank 8. Which while I agree with you that Fear tests can happen too often, and get ridiculous, but by rank 8 a Storm Trooper can buy Fearless, so no crying in a ditch for Beowulf only the merciless and hateful slaughter of the enemies of the Imperium.

True.

Now instead Beowulf of the Massive Blunt Head Trauma will pick fights with Traitor Reaver Titans, Kay-ohss Speess Meehreenss, Tyranid assault class creatures, his own Inquisitor who dares give him orders, and all the potentailly helpful scum and contacts who might mutter something half-way annoying. All because of the same flaw that left him soiling his pants in the ditch before.

I almost think Beowulf would have preferred the ditch, but at least the player can now participate in combat scenes - Until the Reaver Titan steps on the character.

I, personally, stay the hell away from Fearless, since the flaws by far outweigh the benefits.

I would consider asking my GM for 80 IP at game start if I was made to play a low WP char. At least I could have fun playing the crazy. And few insanities are as handicapping as Fearless.

This is definitely off-topic, but I think you're reading too much into that Talent. There is a WP test to willingly disengage from combat, not one to avoid doing anything potentially suicidal.

The Fearless Assassin in my group tends to accomplish suicidal things all the time though, but he has yet to pick a fight with his Inquisitor. Why would he? Fearless doesen't mean stupid, just an abscence of fear.

Posted at

Friend of the Dork said:

Mister Zipangu said:

TempestSatori said:

@ Mister Zipangu

I was talking about giving it to Guardsmen at rank 8. Which while I agree with you that Fear tests can happen too often, and get ridiculous, but by rank 8 a Storm Trooper can buy Fearless, so no crying in a ditch for Beowulf only the merciless and hateful slaughter of the enemies of the Imperium.

True.

Now instead Beowulf of the Massive Blunt Head Trauma will pick fights with Traitor Reaver Titans, Kay-ohss Speess Meehreenss, Tyranid assault class creatures, his own Inquisitor who dares give him orders, and all the potentailly helpful scum and contacts who might mutter something half-way annoying. All because of the same flaw that left him soiling his pants in the ditch before.

I almost think Beowulf would have preferred the ditch, but at least the player can now participate in combat scenes - Until the Reaver Titan steps on the character.

I, personally, stay the hell away from Fearless, since the flaws by far outweigh the benefits.

I would consider asking my GM for 80 IP at game start if I was made to play a low WP char. At least I could have fun playing the crazy. And few insanities are as handicapping as Fearless.

This is definitely off-topic, but I think you're reading too much into that Talent. There is a WP test to willingly disengage from combat, not one to avoid doing anything potentially suicidal.

The Fearless Assassin in my group tends to accomplish suicidal things all the time though, but he has yet to pick a fight with his Inquisitor. Why would he? Fearless doesen't mean stupid, just an abscence of fear.

It also says you need to pass a WP test to back down from a fight. I would personally not extend that to fights that are blatantly impossible to do "Oh, you are being provoked by a Imperator Titan (never minding how it would even notice to provoke you)", the character flat out cant hurt the Titan so it wouldn't engage the fight. But if they are being antagonized by someone, the whole "WP test or fight for your life" comes into play. *Shrug*

So I do treat it as largely a fairly suicidal delusion - something along the lines as you believe you are so protected by the Emprah to have made it this far, your protection could never possibly fail. Its a late game talent after all. :P

Posted at

Rakiel said:

Friend of the Dork said:

Mister Zipangu said:

TempestSatori said:

@ Mister Zipangu

I was talking about giving it to Guardsmen at rank 8. Which while I agree with you that Fear tests can happen too often, and get ridiculous, but by rank 8 a Storm Trooper can buy Fearless, so no crying in a ditch for Beowulf only the merciless and hateful slaughter of the enemies of the Imperium.

True.

Now instead Beowulf of the Massive Blunt Head Trauma will pick fights with Traitor Reaver Titans, Kay-ohss Speess Meehreenss, Tyranid assault class creatures, his own Inquisitor who dares give him orders, and all the potentailly helpful scum and contacts who might mutter something half-way annoying. All because of the same flaw that left him soiling his pants in the ditch before.

I almost think Beowulf would have preferred the ditch, but at least the player can now participate in combat scenes - Until the Reaver Titan steps on the character.

I, personally, stay the hell away from Fearless, since the flaws by far outweigh the benefits.

I would consider asking my GM for 80 IP at game start if I was made to play a low WP char. At least I could have fun playing the crazy. And few insanities are as handicapping as Fearless.

This is definitely off-topic, but I think you're reading too much into that Talent. There is a WP test to willingly disengage from combat, not one to avoid doing anything potentially suicidal.

The Fearless Assassin in my group tends to accomplish suicidal things all the time though, but he has yet to pick a fight with his Inquisitor. Why would he? Fearless doesen't mean stupid, just an abscence of fear.

It also says you need to pass a WP test to back down from a fight. I would personally not extend that to fights that are blatantly impossible to do "Oh, you are being provoked by a Imperator Titan (never minding how it would even notice to provoke you)", the character flat out cant hurt the Titan so it wouldn't engage the fight. But if they are being antagonized by someone, the whole "WP test or fight for your life" comes into play. *Shrug*

So I do treat it as largely a fairly suicidal delusion - something along the lines as you believe you are so protected by the Emprah to have made it this far, your protection could never possibly fail. Its a late game talent after all. :P

Back down from a fight implies there is a fight to back down from. Someone physically or verbally insulting the character might suffice, or if challenged in any way. It also doesen't mean he has to actually use violence, but it means he has to win the "fight."

I can't really remember any situation lately that our Assassin has had to make a WP test to avoid a fight... just hasn't been an issue. An our Assassin would probably win against the Titan anyway ;)

BTW my idea of Fearless characters in fiction includes Brock Sampson (Venture Bros), The (original) Terminator (possible "from beyond" instead) and John (I aint scared of no gunship) Rambo.

Posted at

I guess it depends on the GM. The GM of the story I am in now is very by-the-book oriented, and I would not be in the slightest surprised to see him require the WP test or Fearless Hero will charge the Reaver Titan and gnaw at its ankles with his teeth.

Much as this image amuses me, then I think that I personally would require the test for any "dangerous situation", "personal challenge" or "insult to ego" - But adjust the reaction of failure according to the sutiation. For example:

The anarch scum demonstrators flip Fearless Arbite the bird. He gives anarch scum a well-deserved fist delivered tooth removal and that is it unless more scum get funny ideas. The Chimera mounted multilaser will not be used yet.

Fearless Acolyte gets stared mockingly at by the ganger bodyguards at the meeting with the mob boss. Failed test makes the acolyte stare back and the two have a Strength or Fellowship opposed test to bling-out the other by showing off gear and weapons. A reall mess of those rolls might escalate the situation.

Traitor Reaver Titan gets followed as the Fearless Guardsman tries to radio in the airstrike to take it out. Risks getting caught in the rightious fury of Imperial retribution and wastes time the group should have spent trailing the real case.

That said, I am still going to keep the hell away from the skirt wearing, woad painted madman who cries "I CUT RED WIRE!" at the discovery of the ticking time bomb..

Posted at

I think Wall of stell was left away because of balancing reasons.
Something that becomes rather ridiculous when ascension comes and his hardest competitor the Assassin gets all physical attributes als unnatural as a Vindicare.

But I have to admit that a melee based guardsman with counter attack and wall of steel can be a bit too much for some encounters.

On the topic of fear tests: My guardsmans origin was dusk and with resistance (fear) and the dusk trait little left to fear I had very few occasions where I had to sit in the ditch.

Posted at

Mister Zipangu said:

I guess it depends on the GM. The GM of the story I am in now is very by-the-book oriented, and I would not be in the slightest surprised to see him require the WP test or Fearless Hero will charge the Reaver Titan and gnaw at its ankles with his teeth.

Much as this image amuses me, then I think that I personally would require the test for any "dangerous situation", "personal challenge" or "insult to ego" - But adjust the reaction of failure according to the sutiation. For example:

The anarch scum demonstrators flip Fearless Arbite the bird. He gives anarch scum a well-deserved fist delivered tooth removal and that is it unless more scum get funny ideas. The Chimera mounted multilaser will not be used yet.

Fearless Acolyte gets stared mockingly at by the ganger bodyguards at the meeting with the mob boss. Failed test makes the acolyte stare back and the two have a Strength or Fellowship opposed test to bling-out the other by showing off gear and weapons. A reall mess of those rolls might escalate the situation.

Traitor Reaver Titan gets followed as the Fearless Guardsman tries to radio in the airstrike to take it out. Risks getting caught in the rightious fury of Imperial retribution and wastes time the group should have spent trailing the real case.

That said, I am still going to keep the hell away from the skirt wearing, woad painted madman who cries "I CUT RED WIRE!" at the discovery of the ticking time bomb..

Yeah well my impression of "by the book" does not mean "interprets talents to try to screw over characters." There is nothing about "biting ankles of Titans" in the description, if fact it is the typical DH vague "wp to back down from a fight." So yes if the GM is evil enough to have a Traitor Reaver Titan attack the party, then the Fearless guy will probably want to stay and try to fight it somehow if possible. But what kind of GM does that? Encountering such a thing is extremely unlikely in the first place for an acolyte, and having one actually attacking the acolytes directly spells disaster anyway, and there is no guarantee the rest of the party will even have a chance to escape.

A more likely scenario is that the acolytes are ambushed by superior forces and forced to surrender, in which case the Fearless guy would either want to make that WP test or risk going down in a hail of fire. It's probably a lose-lose scenario anyway as the rest of the party will be captured and stripped of their equipment, something they will go to great lengths to avoid in the first place.

In my game the party was just after a long and bloody struggle, accosted by a Rhino APC with mounted Storm Bolter and 8 carapace armored men with Boltguns and tried to force them to surrender. The Fearless guy was still unconscious along with one other, and yet the remaining two did not surrender but rather tried to fight them. In the end the attackers got what they came from and pulled back while the acolytes took cover and hid. If the Fearless guy had been alive he would probably have engaged the attackers head on in melee, running at them (-40 BS to hit because of Hard Target) and taking out anything outside the APC. After that he would have been on top of the APC and/or tried to take it down with well placed Krak grenades. The player would probably not even bother trying to test WP to get away. That's Fearless.