When Abitrators and even Clerics have both Wall of Steel and Step Aside how is it the Guardsmen, the guys whose only purpose in life is to fight, to be shot at and stabbed day in day out, don't have Wall of Steel?

On a similar note, Scum dont get it either, and it would seem to me that deflecting trouble and danger would be right up a scummer's alley.

Guardsmen and Scum tend toward the Gun Bunny side of things.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Minor addition to the above - while Arbitrators typically tend more towards shooting as well, the iconic image of an Arbitrator with a power maul and suppression shield (or even a shotgun and suppression shield - some patterns of Arbites shield have a slot for mounting a shotgun) means that a talent that lets them parry more often is quite appropriate for a shield-bearing Arbitor.

but guardsmen are the biggest melee scrapers, they favor strength over every other stat, and get all the melee talents save for assassin's strike (for obvious reason) and wall of steel, not to mention they buy their WS cheaper than arbitrators or clerics, who both do get wall of steel. Doesn't make any sense to me.

Strength assists with melee combat. This is not disputed. However, melee combat isn't the only thing strength assists with. Ever notice how Guardsman tend to get all the Heavy Weapon Training talents earlier than everybody else and more cheaply as well? Also, ever notice how pretty much all of the generic heavy weapons tend to weigh on average about 40 kilograms? Let's not forget the weight of all the ammunition for the thing as well as all the basic gear (personal sidearm and reloads, armor, tools, etc.) that the guardsman is carrying. Under such circumstances, you're going to need all the strength you can get.

-Kirov

still doesnt negate my point about guardsmen being able buy up WS, you know the thing you use to hit people with say...blades and sticks, up cheaper than the people who do in fact get Wall of Steel.

Perhaps it has something to do with the training Imperial Guardsmen receive not being overly focused on their survival.

yet they get step aside and battle rage in the errata. To be clear I'm not talking about regular Guardsmen, I'm talking Shock and Storm Troopers.

I was being facetious, sorry. There isn't really a definitive answer to your question, I think. Either it was an oversight, or a deliberate balancing choice. If you've got a strong problem with it, well, that's why elite advances are built into the rules.

fair enough, I was more wondering if it was in fact a balancing issue, or if it was just an oversight, and one they've continued to miss with the errata so far.

Simple game balance issue here. Guardsmen are already hell-on-wheels in combat as it is and they have access to Step Aside in the Veteran rank. Giving a pure combat career that is not locked into pure melee both Step Aside AND Wall of Steel is just unbalancing.

Moritat Reapers DO in fact gain access to both talents, but since they have a code of honour forbidding the use of guns and other "unsanctified" methods of killing it is more about keeping this alternate Assassin career viable (and brutal) within it's niche.

Plus if you have played Warhammer 40K you might have noticed that Imperial Guardsmen models exit the table at a rather alarming rate when focused fire rains down on their positions.... These may be bad-ass professional soldiers, but they are NOT Astartes! For that you will need Deathwatch.

And you do NEED Deathwatch!

Guardsmen get step aside before anyones else, according to the errata. The reason? Simple that they are trained to be fired at, a lot. They aren't guaranteed to dodge but they can get good reflexes for it.

They are also trained for close combat, but where as an assassin is trained to kill a single opponant one on one a guardsmen isn't expected to get into that many fair fights, their preffered meathod is to outnumber the enemy and blundgeon them with rifle butts, stab them with knives and bayonets and hack at them with chainswords. They just aren't expected to use the level of finese required by some other groups.

In general anyway.

Face Eater said:

And on that there note, they do get access to Double Team at Rank 6 - Assault Veteran. More bonuses for outnumbering an enemy... Provided said enemy still grants such.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Ok and yet again, We arent talking lowly Guardsmen here, I'm talking Stormtroopers, Rank 8, the guys who are supposed to be equal to half a space marine, but with worse armour, weapons, and the lack of geneseed. Guys who regularly go in and kill groups 10 times their size, mostly in melee and are expected to walk away. Also not Moritat, all melee assassins have access to both Step aside and Wall of steel, as do Arbitrators, and Scum. Plus now thanks to the errata Storm Troopers also get access to deflect shot, which is very rare. So you're telling me that someone that's good enough to parry a musket ball isn't a good enough melee fighter to parry twice in a turn and dodge? I have to call bull there. The idea that a Ganglord is better at keeping blows and bullets out of his hide than a Storm trooper is ridiculous. Especially from the point of veiw that they have access to a lot of skills and such that Storm Troopers don't.

I'll have to weigh in and say that Guardsmen are already some of the deadliest bastards in DH, and that the reason they don't get as many melee related skills are because they're trained to fire rank and file and file the enemy down before he reaches their lines. Preferably. And really shock/storm trooper is just a name they applied to the in game rank, and the same remains true for them in the fluff. Sure, they're tough in melee, but a ranged fight is definitely what they're going to be going for if they have the chance.

Calm down, Garm ma'boy. There's plenty of career advances out there.

TempestSatori said:

I'm not sure where you get the 'mostly in melee' portion of it. I also don't understand where you can say that "My level 8 guardsman should be able to kick your level 8 gang lord's butt!" You're both level 8 characters, get over it. FWIW, you're not actually a stormtropper at level 8, nor are you a captain at level 7, you're an acolyte and you don't really work for the guard anymore. Storm Troopers are a static unit trained by the Schola Progenium, and I'm betting you didn't spend all that time running around fighting with the inquisition at trooper school. Want to be a storm trooper, ascend and get your inquisitor to send you to class for a while then you can take the real trooper package (which will be a horrible disappointment to you more than likely).

Missing skills/talents really aren't that big a deal. If you really want to get the ability, present your argument to the GM and get it as an elite advance. Not everything has to be in the eratta.

Never mind the naysayers. I agree Guardsman, the only dedicated warrior career, should have Wall of Steel. Assassins and Scum can often outshine them in every area except combat, and quite often in that area as well.

Guardsmen has a good advantage early on with their starting gear, but in my experience Assassins are the real killers (often in "honest" combat), unless your campaign is based on heavy weaponry being usable and available in most missions, which, in DH due it's undercover and secretive nature, is something out of the ordinary.

I don't think it would unbalance Guardsmen to give them WoS at 200 or maybe 300 xp.

Oh give the Guardsman Wall of Steel at 200 xp if he is not too low rank - Perhaps at 500 xp if he is low (rank six and below).

It will in no way ruin the balance since your mighty Rambo/Conan/Beowulf is going to be lying crying in a ditch all the time because of the Fear test that seems to be required at every single pivotal combat encounter.

@Friend of the Dork

Exactly. thank you.

@ Mister Zipangu

I was talking about giving it to Guardsmen at rank 8. Which while I agree with you that Fear tests can happen too often, and get ridiculous, but by rank 8 a Storm Trooper can buy Fearless, so no crying in a ditch for Beowulf only the merciless and hateful slaughter of the enemies of the Imperium.

If you want to give Guardsman Wall of Steel, I would recommend making it available at the Rank 6 (Lieutenant) for 200xp and Rank 7 (Shock Trooper) for 300xp. I would also recommend adding Step Aside to Rank 6 (Scout) for 200xp or 300xp.

Or, just work it out with Elite Advances.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Brother Praetus said:

As per the eratta Guardsman get Step Aside at Veteran (Rank 5) for 100xp already.

@Friend: No, the ability wouldn't unbalance anything particularly, but I don't find that not havng it is unbalanced ether. Either HR it or present the argument to your GM for an elite advance for 200xp. I also find that the guardsman and assassin can both outperform each other all depending on how they've been built and the flavor of the game. And sometimes the 'big dummy' with no socials but a heavy bolter can actually be quite fun to play at a fancy dress party, regardless of social effectiveness, and can actually turn an adventure in favor of resorting to heavy weapons

@Fear Checks: Remember Guardsman can also pick up Resistance (Fear) at Sergeant/Rank 4 for 100xp, Unshakeable Faith at Captain/Rank 8 for 100xp, and Insanely Faithul at Storm Trooper/Rank 8 for 200xp. This doesn't fix that their WP is outrageously expensive. But at that point maybe you'll be "lucky" and have enough IP to not worry about some of the lesser fear-inducing creatures.

Interesting thread, not having played a game to that rank i can't really comment, it works as an elite advance. As a 40K tabletop player that has faced Storm Troopers on many occassions the idea that they are comparable to a Space Marine is laughable, and as for doing most of their killing in close combat, the Hot-Shot Las Gun is exclusively used by Storm Troopers which indicated that they are primarly a shooting style. While both better trained and better equiped than a standard gaurdsman, most would rely on their Carapace armour and blasting the mwith Hot-shot than dodging or parring.

So for me it makes sense that they left it out. It may be that it's included in the Storm Trooper package in Ascension.

Valdek said:

Well this is not the tabletop game. Unless you're playing Deathwatch there are no Space Marines to compare them to. And although I agree IG are not melee specialists, they are combat specialists and should be the equal or better in purely combat talents compared to Scum and Assassins.

This is a matter of balance more than anything, as IG are severely lacking in skills and talents that are not combat-oriented. In most DH situations the skillset of the Scum and Assassin (and most other classes) are much more useful than the Guardsman, so I think it only right they get to be at least as good as them in combat. Wall of Steel fits (especially since Guardsman also encompasses Feral tribal warriors and Feudal Knights). Assassin's Strike does not fit, and neither does Decieve +20.

Friend of the Dork said:

Nope, no wall of steel (replaced with blade dancer) in Ascension for Storm Troopers. You get some influence talents, and some mastry talents (which are probably covered by all the weapon talents you already have if you started as a combat based guardsman. There is also, for some reason, a lot of Fellowship 50 pre-req abilities. Not sure how many Guardsman have bought up their fellowship that high.

I agree that Guardsman are lacking in non-combat skills, but I'm not sure that they're less effective in combat than an Assassin or Scum, and in the (few) games I've played, the guardsman and the assassin are the combat monkies that shine in their own elements. I personally don't have a problem adding it, or just saying it's not in the guardsman's pervue under normal circumstances, thus the elite advance option.

Friend of the Dork said:

If you look at the way they're designed, I think it's clear that Guardsmen were designed so that the player would spend a big hunk of their XP on Sound Constitution and characteristics increases. And that cheap Strength increase does make them better, simply because they can carry a lot more gear.