The herald seems wonderful. I think you can play it conservatively and make a profit (but I looked through the cards, and even conservative play of it can result in severe burns at times). I *really* like it. The new gates are delightful (and difficult). Six split gates, and out of 18 gates only 4 have modifiers of +0 or +1. In other words, gate closing's quite a bit harder now. The relationship cards may balance this out a bit, and of course, taking a few bound allies probably will ;') or at least they would if The Lurker didn't reduce all gate modifiers (I can't wait to play it with Yog). I like how the relationship cards tend to be useful, but none of them seem horrifically overpowered, and of course, they'll add to the cooperative feel of the game.

I'm not quite sure what the two hands on the Intervene spell means. That you can't cast both of them if you have both of them? Or?

The double gate opening mythos cards are brilliant and terrifying.

Oh, and did I mention that I love the reckoning cards?

Hrm... With these **** moving gates, I think Arcane Insight has just gotten even better.

I liked all the new items except for hand camera. I thought many of them were fairly interesting (especially the spells). Has anyone thought of why hand camera might be useful? It seems like a complete rip-off for $5. Do you think it can at least be used for Trish along with press pass for passing her personal story? As for my favorite new item, Staff of the Pharoah. ::Laughter:: do you realize how many dice you can get with that and Dread Curse (and of course, with Marie, it will be even more obscenely powerful)?

Here's another question, currently I'm inclined to say yes, but, can Ever-present Temptation be used during final battle? It seems like it would weaken several of the Ancient Ones considerably, by allowing you to regain all your sanity or stamina. Also, Bound Ally says you discard the ally and place it on the ancient one when the Ancient One awakens, does this mean that if you wait until after the ancient one awakens for getting the bound ally, you can get around this effect (I doubt it, but that's what the wording says).

The new rumors are nice, neither are too vicious. I really like the mechanism of The Unraveling Tapestry.

Another question, can the Endless Gate only not be taken as a trophy by closing or sealing (i.e. let's say you get it with Scurrilous Stranger Scandal!)?

Moon Creature Hoax was really cool (you'll see it soon enough if you haven't already).

The Other World cards were well written, but didn't really add anything novel in terms of game mechanics.

The Encounter cards were more interesting in terms of game effects, but they also didn't add anything that can potentially alter the game in drastic ways.

Avi_dreader said:

In King in Yellow it specifies that if the Ancient One awakens, return the Herald to the box, it has no further effect on the game (though of course the Blights in play still have their effect). Now is it merely an oversight that the same thing isn't mentioned in the rules for the Lurker Herald?

I thought the new Rumors were a little too soft, myself.

Solan said:

Must every Rumor flip our skins inside out? :')

We've played three games now with Lurker and no other expansions (we'd forgotten how much easier Injury/Madness make the game). In the first, Azathoth awoke with too many open gates. We just weren't expecting the new gates to be so much tougher and paid the price. Ithaqua and Cthulhu both were sealed in lengthy 39 and 38 turn games. (The Terrible Experiment came up both times, and keeping that under control slowed us down a lot)

And this brings up the slight problem with Lurker's Mythos deck: we were able to have a game that long without using several Elder Signs (we used one against Ithaqua). There's nothing in it that adds extra doom tokens, so with Lurker alone there's only 11 locations that can open, and provided you keep away from the open gate limit, you can go back to being patient with sealing. There's two moving gates, which could in theory give you 13 gate openings if you can't seal them before they move (more, if you spend them and then close the endless gate and get them shuffled back up to the top of the stack), but on the other hand, the double-gate cards don't add doom tokens, so if a gate or two opens off them, you're back to safety. Gate bursts don't add doom tokens either.

Add any other expansion and this problem would immediately disappear with either the occasional double-doom card or more gate opening locations or both, of course, and the double-gate cards could be really unpleasant with Innsmouth.

I really liked Moon Creature Hoax, too. Does it give an answer to the other "what happens if a monster that can't do that gets there?" questions, perhaps?

I think if you get the endless gate as a trophy by other means you can keep it, just as you would for monster trophies in encounters, starting equipment, etc.

I think you're right about Intervene - just a way to make sure that you can't contribute too much extra to a fight.

I would say that you can't use it during final battle. I'd probably say that you couldn't use any effects of any already taken pacts either, or there's an exploit where McGlen can become unbeatable versus Yig, for instance, by using both Blood and Soul pacts.

cim said:

McGlen would become unbeatable? How?

Also, I was thinking about playing it just on its own, but as you pointed out earlier, that seems like a potentially bad idea (because of exploitable doom track). CotDP might mix well with it... Although the double gates allow investigators to avoid the double colored cards even more...

I think Lurker and Innsmouth would make the best mix. Or Dunwich too (but I'd consider taking out the Madness and Injury cards since they allow players to get around the need for blood pacts and soul pacts). Hrm... I think I'm going to house rule this (i.e. no madness/injury when Lurker is the herald).

I think I like the Bound Ally pacts the best. Anyone else?

We've only played once with Lurker, and my wife drew the relationship card that let's her "partner" gain an ally when she gets one (and vice versa). Needless to say, she took a Bound Ally first turn. This is a really cool card, and other than the fear of the Reckoning cards, if you don't intend for final battle to occur can be beneficial. Alas, Cthulhu woke up and having to do that extra point of damage made a significant challenge in our game. I'm not sure if it was directly related to him beating us, but it was a factor.

I really like this expansion so far, and hopefully we'll get to play again tonight (and likely with 8 players again).

Another question: if you discard your Bound Ally, what happens to your Bound Ally card and the Bound Ally? Do you discard them both? Does the Ally return to the box or not return to the deck? What?

Avi_dreader said:

Say you have Socially Connected and Bound Ally for instance...

Does restoring your sanity/stamina to the maximum count as "gaining"? I.e. will that interact with Soul Pact and Blood pact with The Asylum, The Hospital, or Madness/Injury cards?

If an effect says discard clue tokens, can power tokens be discarded instead?

Soul Pact and Blood Pact are fairly useful (and not as threatening) if you use them the turn you come out of a gate for the exact number of clues you'd need to seal. Currently I'm playing a game against Hastur, that I'm probably going to end because I think I'm going to win (and I need to leave in an hour). It's a bit tougher then (especially since I decided to myself at the beginning of the game that a final battle victory would count as a loss). I think that with a lot of the Ancient Ones, if played properly, Lurker almost functions as a guardian (of course, it can also blow up in your face, but, that's Arkham for you). I think blitzing the gates with soul pacts and bound allies can make for a really easy win. So... It might be best to only play this herald with Ancient Ones like Hastur, and Yog (since they make gates so problematic), and possibly Cthulhu (since he makes the soul pacts and blood pacts less powerful). Of course, since he allows for a faster play, he'd also go well with some of the short track Ancient Ones. But in all cases, I think that if you're playing with Lurker, there should be no allowances for final battle victories (granted, with bound allies, it'll still be difficult), but they should be counted as draws at best (in my opinion). I think it significantly reduces game difficulty if played properly (I.e. if you don't horde power).

Since the Bound Ally card says to "attach the ally to this card," I assume that when the ally is discarded, so is the Bound Ally card. I don't see any reason why the ally should be returned to the box instead of discarded.

Since "discard" and "spend" are not the same, I'd say you can't discard power tokens instead of clue tokens.

As for the Hospital thing, I don't know. You are technically still "gaining"...

Tibs said:

I'm inclined to agree with all three of those assumptions, but I'd like definite clarification.

Tibs said:

Of course, you can then just take another Bound Ally pact, and so possibly take 4 pacts a game. This one could really do with clarification.

Avi_dreader said:

Sorry, Ithaqua, not Yig. Harvey has a similar exploit against Hastur.

Take a Soul Pact and a Blood Pact.

In Upkeep, exhaust the Blood Pact. Lose 1 stamina (reduced to 0 by Strong Body) to gain 1 power.

In Ancient One attack, take 2 stamina damage (reduced to 1 by Strong Body). Spend the power from the Soul Pact to cancel the stamina loss.

Repeat.

If you can still use the "You may spend" portion of the pacts when they're exhausted, this works against Yig too. McGlen takes a Blood Pact, Harvey takes a Soul Pact. Get one power from the pact for free, use that power to cancel the type of damage you aren't already resistant to.

cim said:

I think by the card using 'X' prevents McGlen from abusing a soul pact. X = X, and mathematically, you cannot have them be two separate numbers ever. So if McGlen want lose 3 stamina to gain 3 power, then he must lose 3 stamina. He trades in three stamina, which then makes X = 3, and he gains three power, so the second X =3. Which in turn means 3 = 3.

If he uses his power to reduce the loss, then he is setting X to = 2. The loss is still 2, so he can only gain 2 power tokens, not 3, because 2 = 3 cannot ever happen. If the card specifically said lose 3 stamina to gain 3 clue tokens, then he could prevent one. Because it is a specific cost to gain a specific amount, and not using a variable. But lose X to gain X, you can never have two different numbers equal X.

This is the same thing with people trying to use Lurker to abuse Call Ancient One. Lurker puts sanity cost to 0. And the spell says sanity cost is X, casting modifier is -X, lose X trophies to remove X doom tokens. Well, X=X=X=X that means they can never be different numbers. That's the whole point of using a variable in mathematics, that X must always be the exact same number where used. So the Lurker setting sanity cost to 0, he just set X=0 because that's the only forced number of the whole card, which means the modifer is now 0 (which Lurker makes you automatically pass anyway), and means you discard 0 trophies to remove 0 doom tokens. So there can be no possible exploit with the Lurker for this spell or a pact. Once X is set, it has to remain that way through the rest of the card.

Professor DoomTurtle is right.

X = #

# = #

It is like algebra. X = X in all parts of a single equation.

The only way you get another number is to create a Y, for example.

The card would look something like this if it wanted separate values.



Exhaust Blood Pact and lose X Stamina to gain Y Power. Y is equal to the Stamina that would be lost before applying modifiers or character abilities.

I'm not sure I agree with that. You could alternatively read it as "set a value X: apply the effects 'gain X power' and 'lose X sanity'" and any loss-mitigation things can be used (Whiskey, Trumpet, being Harvey, etc)

In Call Ancient One, the X is a cost. In the Pact, it's a loss. A cost you have to pay to activate a power and can't be avoided. A loss is a consequence of activating a power and can be avoided.

I view the Soul Pact's sanity/power swap as being largely equivalent to this Witch House encounter:

"In an old journal you learn some horrible eldritch secrets. Roll a die. Lose that much Sanity and gain that many Clue tokens."

I don't think there's much argument that Harvey loses 1 fewer sanity than the die roll here, but still gains the full number of clues, and rewriting the encounter to include Xs wouldn't change that.

"Set X as the roll of a die. Lose X Sanity and gain X Clue tokens"

I'm perfectly happy to accept that it should say "spend" rather than "lose" in the pact, as that's one way to stop this exploit (but equally, disallowing the use or taking of pacts in the final fight is also a plausible way to stop it, and avoids some other tricks, while encouraging a little power accumulation for people who can cancel losses)

Here's a couple of tricks that you can use against any Ancient One if pacts are usable in the final fight:

- Harvey or Dexter (with a passed personal story), or Daisy (any time) takes a Blood Pact. They use the Pact to gain Power Tokens, and then cast Heal (now with a sanity cost of zero) to restore their health. With maxed-out Lore they can probably get 2-3 stamina back from Heal a turn, so that's 2-3 almost-clues a turn in the final fight (Nyarlathotep won't accept them, of course). If they've picked up a couple of copies of Heal, then other investigators with Blood Pacts can get the same benefit. (Agnes can also do fairly well out of this by casting from stamina and still making a small profit to exchange for Power, and any high sanity spellcaster can do this for several turns, even if not indefinitely)

- Against Ancient Ones that don't drain sanity or stamina, non-spellcasters take both Blood and Soul pacts if they don't already have them to restore to full, and spend down to 1 of each to get (about) 8 power. 8 extra almost-clues per Investigator in the final fight is very powerful.

- Spellcasters cast spells such as Dread Curse and Shrivelling until down to 1 sanity, then take a Soul Pact and do the same again to stay in the fight much longer.

Since no gates are going to open in the final fight, no Reckoning cards get drawn, so this is risk free. The Lurker - bound ally pacts excepted - becomes a strong Guardian rather than a Herald in the final fight. The first two tricks can be done even if you can't take new pacts during the fight, provided you take them just before the Ancient One awakens instead.

cim said:

You're right, which is why we need a ruling that Power cannot be used in the final fight. Otherwise the Herald is far too beneficial.

cim said:

I'd presume that The Pacts count as costs, not losses, regardless of the terminology (but who knows). FFG tends to be sloppy about these kinds of things... It'll need to be clarified in the FAQ if it is in fact a cost (I suspect).

Solan said:

Maybe it was a FFG typo. Maybe they meant to call it a Guardian ;')

Well I've always pushed a rule that you can't gain clues in final combat. Since Power tokens are similar to clues, we can just extend the rule so that you can't gain Power Tokens either.

Tibs said:

Even from Tommy's personal story? It seems such a thematic time for that to work.

Being able to take new pacts during the fight could give a lot more time against sanity/stamina-draining Ancient Ones, too, so it's perhaps not enough to avoid power gaining.