Hmm, or, what about making Psykers take fatigue if they use their powers too much? You'd think all that focus would wear you down mentally.

Syzygy said:

Wouldn't work well. There is a minor power to remove fatigue, and regenerate automatically removes all fatigue every round.

The biggest things I would focus on is the psykers themselves, not slapping them mechanically for a class they chose. The mechanics already give them some randomness in the fact their abilities are fantastic, but can be horrible for anyone around them - especially when you get into perils or anything that causes corruption (remember: the 1-100 corruption track is for PC's only, a couple points of corruption could drive nearby NPC's insane or invariably set the seeds for a cult or something like that). Psykers stand out, especially to other psykers - the use of their abilities invariably shows where they are to others. If the psyker is going willy nilly with his powers, apply social implications of someone channeling the warp and the fact they are universally loathed outside of a few specific types (navigators, astropaths) - and maybe have cults and what not start to take notice that there is a strong psyker nearby, maybe they need one for a ritual or somesuch?

Mechanically psykers are easy to deal with - I made the list on the other page for ideas for people, they are powerful, yes, but they can be dealt with, especially as power levels keep increasing and access to anti-psyker things start to pop up more and more.

A couple things that might help. Anytime you're dealing with a group of 13 mooks needing to make resist rolls vs. fear, just remember that those who make it, are gonna see one guy, who hasn't taken a weapon out. Unless the Psyker has Quick Draw, to make this look less obvious, the mooks are very likely (I'd say Awareness +20) to notice the scary looking guy without a weapon in his hand.

Just remember to keep in mind how long the Psyker has to take for his actions. A Full round action for fear. A Full round action for Weapon Jinx. Blood Boil is a half action, but counts as an attack action, so he's doing something else the rest of the round. In all these cases, unless the mooks are extremely stupid, or caught unawares, they're gonna notice, and take appropriate action.

I know full well, having played a Psyker up to Mistress Templar Calix, that simple things can spell a Psyker's doom. I used to be the one who scared the group just by being around. Lately, not so much; the Adept is scaring them now. But I digress.

The point being, if the Psyker is going out of his way trying to paint a bullseye on his chest for the mooks, then don't be afraid to use it!

Denmar1701 said:

That may be, but to draw from the most recent boss encounter for my group, the fight went like this-

Round One:

Activate Unnatural Aim (half action), Take a half action to use a normal aim (So +30 Ballistics from Unnatural aim, and +10 fo rthe half action aim, +40 ballistics skill so far)

Everyone else preps weapons, or uses full run actions to get into cover away from the boss.

Roud Two:

Psyker, already with a combined +40 ballistics bonus, proceeds to use his weapon on full-auto, giving him an additional +20 ballistics, bringing his ballistics to a grand total of +60 ballistic bonus, and his base ballistics is 35, so he is now making a ranged attack on an 8-shot full auto at a whopping 95 ballistics skill.

He blew the boss, the freaking BOSS of the entire campaign, away in that single turn.

Our assasin hates him because when you hold up the two characters raw killing power side-to-side, the Psyker beats the crap out of being an assasin. Several of my players asked if they could reroll as a psyker, and if I say "no" I know without a doubt that they will purposely kill their current characters so they can reroll anyway.

That's basically what the psykers been doing for every encounter. Slapping him on the wrist with tweaked mechanics STILL doesn't stop him, despite me having changed the rules to allow psychic phenomena on a power roll of a 7 or a 9 (With an automatic Perils of the Warp occuring if he rolls both numbers consecutively) and have forced him to take a level of fatigue for every 3 powers he uses in a single hour of narrative time. And this still isn't enough to keep him in check.

Syzygy said:

A few thoughts.

1. If I roll a psyker, I want to be able to play him without feeling like I'm ruining the GM's plans simply because I happen to have certain powers. Instead of trying to make the psyker weaker, why not concentrate on making the other characters stronger? Or, as others have mentioned, try putting the characters in a situation where psychic powers are not the solution?
2. Aim only gives you a bonus to hit if you're firing on single shot. Not that +50% BS is a negligible bonus but it can make a difference.
3. If you give somone a clear shot, at someone who is lightly armoured, they are probably going to kill them easily. Even if all shots hit, if I'm wearing a carapce armour and have a toughness bonus of 4 (say), then there is a still a pretty good chance that even if you get your max RoF as hits that I might survive that. Not to mention, a dodge could cancel some of those shots as well.
4. ...but you know what stops bullets bette than armour? Minions and walls!! I find it is a common trp that final concrontations occur in ginatn rooms that resemble high school gyms. That's basically the best possible sitution for munchkinism. On the other hand, if you're chasing you baddies through a death trap, I'm sure that assassin with his acrobatics and sneaking and ambushes would be more in his element.

I think you should look at this as an opportunity for role-playing and planning out a truly memorable combat challenge. With distractions, other enemies and objectives other than killing the enemy to take care of, I usually find that everybody has plenty to do.

Actually, in our DH game, I play an assassin vs. our tech-priest and psyker and yeah - there have been times where the psyker got off a lucky roll on initiative and managed to eliminte a baddie before we could act but when his powers mess up, we don't let him live it down so easy. And when he uses an always potentially dangerous power when a sword or a rifle would do the same, we have to chalk it up to a serious lack of judgement possibly influenced by Dark Powers... And we watch him constantly and report on him at all times to our Inquisitor of our suspicions. More than once he's been taken asside and "dissapeared" for debriefing only to return a little frazzled and more hesitant to overbleed everything, heedless of the consequences.

Best of luck!!

Macharias the Mendicant said:

Yep. The Boss who gets in the open and takes a statuesque pose while ordering his minions to kill the heroes might work in anime or videogames but clearly not in pen & paper.

Was just qutoed and just realised: wow. Look at all my typos... ouch! (Sorry guys )

Hm, how do you GMs deal with the NPC psykers and their awful damage dealing potential then? The social penalties just aren't there...and even a rank 5 Pyromancer, played intelligently, could easily party wipe an entire cadre.

To wit:
Chameleon (+ Distort Vision) to close on the cadre. Holocaust causing 5d10+5 damage (based on WP 50+), on average 32.5 ignoring Toughness/Armor. It's possible the bad-ass Guardsman is still standing due to True Grit, but with severe Critical hits.

Of course, a GM could put their players up against The Villain Designed To Kill The Entire Group Over and Over just as easily, but to my mind a single villain of rank 5 killing an entire party is just...ridiculous.

I don't quite get how social penalizing is meant to balance a psyker either. I briefly played a psyker a while back, and thought the social negatives were just a roleplaying bonus in most circumstances! It's fun to play the outsider! Cadres offing you at the slightest hint of a warp phenomena is another matter entirely of course

Our group just started Ascension and will be playing with the following house rule: # of dice = Psy Rating used, bonus = Psy Rating used. Major and Ascended Powers can't be fettered. Thus, Unnatural WP won't wreak havoc, and there is always a danger in using your powers.

With psykers you must remember that 99% of the Imperium will flee in terror, attack on sight, or be overwhelmingly unnerved or frightened by the presence of a psyker. Don't forget that everyone in the Imperium has been brought up to hate and fear the psyker. Only the highest levels of society or government will ever have any interaction with a psyker and then only limitedly. It’s not just a matter of being the outsider. It’s being the outsider that none of your friends (other players) should ever truly trust, and everyone else fears and hates you for existing.

Also remember that there are whole Imperium wide organizations that hunt psykers. They will find any excuse to imprison, torture and kill one they come across. A sanctioning brand or a rosette mean that they might not kill you immediately but they will certainly make you suffer for existing and crossing their paths.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Searching the DH core book a bit, I found the following on page 158 (under the heading Imperial Psykers) : "...Imperial Psykers often blend into their seconded role with surprising skill. Clad in monkish robes or secure behind scholarly titles, they often appear indistinguishable from the vast ranks of the Administratum scribes."

There are also descriptions that common folk fear and even loathe psykers (or witches as they might call them), but not to the degree you describe. In addition, hiding the sanctioning brand should be quite easy, unless you happen to have been branded right in the face. In other words, I don't see how psykers are automatically treated with terror/hate/awe without revealing their powers?

More than likely, no one will know what a psyker is until you do something. That's when the harsh reactions will kick in. Sometimes people do know what you are and they will use it against you.

The psyker I am currently playing prefers garish colored good quality business suits and a hat, his sanctioning mark is on the top of his head so hats are both convenient and stylish. The fact that he's 6' 8" tall also helps in hiding it, although the witch prickling sanctioning side effect certainly draws some curiosity and unwanted questions in social situations.

Howdy!

How about some Witch Hunting Clerics, Sisters of Battle, Redemptionists, or just well meaning towns folk. Fear works against everyone, including innocent civilians as well. "Grandma had a heart attack, or got insanity points." If he wants to run a character that is the "Gateway to the Warp" remember he will attract a lot of "fire". Burn the Witch!~Fear aura is not sneaky...it is warp spawned sinister. It is hard to stay undercover as a Psycker. Cause sanctioned psyckers are well known and wild psyckers are hunted by everyone and burned. Or have the Inquistor side up next to one of the PC's during the mission brief and give them a bolt pistol with psy bolts for just in case "Witch Dude" goes wild.

"How to deal with psykers, both PCs and NPCs."

NPCs

Don't bother rolling them up fully like a PC. Just give them the right Psy rating and enough abilities to make it interesting for the encounter they are going to be used. Assume that as soon as the players get wind of them they will be toast. However you can make the encounter interesting with a combination of beauties like distort vision and weapon jinx.

PCs

Oh my! Firstly make sure they are using all the errata & also any suitable/relevant house rules (e.g. psy rating instead of WP bonus). Take your game up a level think around the issue.

e.g. A standard fear attack will be passed by 20-30% of your goons. Of the ones who failed I apply the following, a third will be delayed for half an action, a third will be gone for a few rounds and the rest you will never see again. Stat the encounter to take into account of this tactic. Reward the player for using it. It's not clear in the rules but I have it that after the fear attack the NPC is no longer affected by the psyker's fearful aura for that encounter. Any new NPCs will have to roll though.

However my favourite tactic in these situations is overload the players. Give them too much to handle. e.g. During the goon rush, also have some spirits possess a major friendly NPC and also have enemy wytches open up. Before you know it you will have the PC psyker trying to do an exorcism in the middle of a combat whilst the combat PCs are holding off the horde and you have PCs like adepts and tech-priests going after enemy psyker! Have it so the psyker is too busy dealing with something they are best suited to.

In my opinion, there's no way to stop power players, so don't even try. But if it really gets your ire aroused, then here's some options/tips for Imperial Psykers:

1: Untouchables. Have the occassional NPC be an Untouchable (detailed in the Radical's Handbook) to put a little fear into the Psyker. Untouchables don't cast a Warp shadow, so they aren't affected by psychic powers.

2: WFRP 2nd Ed Crossover. For the Psychic Phenomenon and Perils of the Warp rolls, don't just have it on a 9. Do it on a double or of any number (for Phenomena) or quads+ (for Perils). This may seem a bit weird, but psychic power and the shifting warp aren't predictable. As long as you let the psyker player know this will happen, things should be fine.

3: Make Trouble. If the Psyker starts popping off powers left and right, there will be some sort of fallout that people will see. As such, the psyker could well be attacked by angry mobs with pitchforks (well... mono-pitchforks) and torches (well... glow-globes), as the majority of people in the Imperium hate and/or fear psykers.

4: Do Nothing. This is a little lazy, but let him run to his own devices. By law of averages, he will, eventually, dig his own grave.

There are only a few suggestions (and, yes, they're a bit harsh) but I'm sure you'll get more as time goes on.

P.S. Las weapons are not meant to be too powerful, as they are mass-produced in spectacular numbers, while SP weapons are not so much, but I always find a good Lasgun with an Overcharge pack can cause just as much damage as a heavy stubber if you use it right.

ItsUncertainWho said:

From this certain parallels can be drawn to wizards in WFRP. Also, don't forget, it is every citizens duty to destroy the psyker, the mutant, the witch, and the alien for the good of the Imperium!

First you decide what you and your group mean with balance.

The same damage output? Battle usefulness? Niche balance? Skill usefulness? The same anout of time in spotlight? The same coolness factor in the story? Numeric fairness? Etc.

Once you -defined- what sort of balance you are looking for the actual balancing gets much easier.

Macharias the Mendicant said:

Not so. From the Core rule book, p192:

"Aim (Half or Full Action)
You may take extra time to set up a melee or ranged attack to increase the chance to hit. If you spend a Half Action to aim, your next attack is made at a +10 to your Weapon Skill (for melee attacks) or Ballistic Skill (for ranged attacks). If you spend a Full Action Aiming, the bonus increases to +20. The attack must follow immediately otherwise the benefits of Aiming are lost."

Says nothing in there about Single Shots only. I had the same understanding of the rule as you, and was surprised to learn it was not so. Still don't know where I had it from, probably WFRP v2 where the wording of the action is something like "as long as you next action is a Standard Attack" or something like that. However, it's worth noting that Auto Fire does not combine with Called Shots (that is attacks against a specified body part).

Seems like a legitimate use of a psykers powers, but he will need to be standing still for a round. Unless he started in a good position behind cover, he should be expecting incoming pain. And whoever he intends to shoot will have plenty of time to take cover or shoot first.

Let's bring this slightly back on topic, shall we?

Okay, a little late to this party but people have touched most of what I would suggest. Don't bend the rules, but use them to your advantage.

Suggestions like, goons with 40-50 Strength and two-handed primitive weapons are still scary... even better, make 1/3 or 1/2 of them mono'ed (keep that a secret until they hit!) and people will start to fear again.

As for Fear (I had the same problem), remember a lot of things happen in public. Boom! Some guy turns into the image of a daemon and scares the good, the bad and the ugly the SOMEONE is calling the enforcers. Sorry, but you can't be throwing AoE powers or things with a lot of flash and NOT having to answer to someone afterward. "Hey, but I work for the Inquisition!" gets the reply "Groxshit! You are coming with us." And even if they can, players are Acolytes not Inquisitors; they DO answer to others.

Someone put something up about using fate on the Phenom. table... the answer is NO. "Re-roll any one failed Test." (DH pg 185). does not apply to "...they will invoke Psychic Phenomena and must roll on Table 6-2:" (DH 161). This is NOT a failed test, it is a roll to determine the consequences. One step further, "They then make a Power Roll by rolling a number of dice up to their Psy Rating..." (DH pg 161) again, a power ROLL, not a TEST. Tests tend to be purely based on a Characteristic or Skill. A Power Roll is not. So, keep only 9's and watch how often things can get bad.

Speaking of bad, even though the players are working together, they will not tolerate a Psyker who "accidentally" starts giving them Insanity or Corruption Points. Here is where (maybe enforced?) role playing comes into effect. You think a Metallican Gunslinger is going to let the insult of some witch "jinxing" his pistols?? (Or does everyone spend a round running outside 10m?) The upper half of the Phenomena table causes indiscriminate trouble to the friends and foes and the entire Perils table is bad new for everyone. Someone pointed out (and I have the same in the campaign I run) that psykers (esp. astropaths) can have "handlers"... if the psyker causes general mayhem, then have the party's Inquisitor assign someone to execute him before he inadvertently summons a daemon or becomes possessed. Remember, the actual characters do not have a copy of DH (yes, players do) so when "Ghostly apparitions fill the air for 3d10m around the Psyker..." (54-56 Warp Ghosts) and someone fails the WP Test and gets and Insanity Point, then that character is role playing well when he attempts to execute or at least knock the Psyker into unconsciousness.

Again, fight Psyker with Psyker. If you take time to create NPCs with the same rules as character creation, then there can be no complaints that you are deliberately making up things.

-Cynr

Howdy!

I am amazed at the ire PC Psychers have caused. The focus of Dark Heresy is Covert investigation. Please read some of the WH40K fluff. Psychers are turned over to the Inquisitions Black Ships immediately, and some times the reward for mere contact with a Psycher/Witch is death. Most psychers are sacrificed to the emperior, precious few are soul bound to the emperior and allowed to live as they serve the empire. Witches are hated, hunted and feared by the church(PC- Clerics and SOB), military(PC-guardsmen), and law enforcement(PC-Arbites). The criminal organizations(PC-Scum) dont like them because they attract to much attention. They are active warp portals and the best route for demonic invasion.

Just read the erata and use the rules as written. Role play the npcs and encourage the PC to role play as well. The PC Cleric or SOB that does anything kinder to the psycher than ask them to repent, should be docked role playing exps.

I will restate that the use of psychers is considered by some in the Inquisition to be radical. One very easy way to limit them is to have the NPC Inquistor be a puritan. " We use them like hunting dogs, because to destroy evil we must sometimes use unpleasant tools." The PC Psycher is the unpleasant tool.