Prezimonto said:

I couldn't disagree more with that.

The ability for FFG to add more "stuff" into the appropriate card pack in future supplements is a great idea. They want to increase careers or mutations, just provide more cards. If this was a table in a book, the table would need re-printing to include the new info, which makes the old table obselete and you are back to having to work out which book holds the latest info about which subject, and you end up carrying a lot of books around with you to ensure you always have the right info. OK, some people might see this as a gimmick and as a way of helping to prevent pirating, but I also see it as a genuinely clever concept in ensurign the lpayers don't end up with a bunch of obselete inofmration.

amending errors on the cards and providing us with new PDF/proper copies is also a doddle and prevents the need for either referring to an FAQ during play, or writing pencil notes all over the rule book (my mates' DH book is full of scrawl where rules have been errated...)

I think you other comment fundementally explains why some people like this system and some people don't.

You see the levels in the game about the various vertical career progressions from basic, to intermediate to advanced style careers and beyond. Whereas I see the levels in the game being about the characters Rank (the only thing that is referred to as a kind of level in the game officially) and from the core rule book rules for "every" character rank are covered; fact.

If i can progress my PC through the rank system, using all of the careers in the core book (which with admittedly the exception of wizards and priests, I can) then why do I have to worry about the limit of intemediate and advanced careers. Advanced careers are not the be all and end all of this system as they were in previous editions and I don't need them to progress a character; they are nice, certainly, but they aren't necessary.

I think I agree with you, largely. My group looks at their character's career fairly literally. When I'm not gm'ing I have a coachman turned burgher... he literally roleplays that he's starting a coaching business, until merchant came out he didn't have a defined goal to progress into in terms of running a business directly. Similarly, another of our characters started as a boatman and classed into, I think, pit fighter, and he's looking for what his next class might be. In a mechanics sense of the game bounty hunter or soldier would be good options for him... but he doesn't want to go to either because they don't make sense for what his character would like to do/become... and going back to thug seems like a step backwards in terms of role play from a pit fighter. For these characters the system is mildly frustrating, but workable. For a mage or priest, who's core skills and features lie outside of the skill mechanic of the game with spells and prayers being forced to sidestep is very frustrating. I know Winds of Magic provides a reasonable explanation for doing so, but that does not mean it doesn't frustrate a player who had no want to follow that route, in a role play sense, for their character. We regard rank as a measure of a character's total experience and as a way to gauge how well a party will stand up to various situations, but in terms of progression it's the careers which define the role-play end of the game for us, and being forced into careers you have no interest to pursue due to a lack of content isn't fun.

Pumpkin I totally agree with you.

I think there is a resistance from people who are not willing to give up on the old chart/table driven aspect of roleplaying. What FFG has done with cards and dice is a revolation to me. I'm not saying I hated the old style of RPG games but this system seems a lot less cumbersome to me. I used to hate having to remember what page an obscure rule or new rule was on and then see players get frustrated when I would stop in the middle of an adventure to take a few minutes to reread something. Now I can easily look at the card and all the information is in front of me. Do I still have to look up NPC and Monster stats/actions. Yes but I've easliy converted all this information into a spreadsheet which I can print out before I begin an adventure. So now I can spend more time GMing and less time book keeping or referencing.

I only played the first edition of WHFRP so I can't comment on the second edition but the careers feel right to me. Are there a lack of Advanced careers. Maybe, actually definitely basic and advanced for Wood Elf, but the careers still work along the lines of WHFRP. Levels were never part of the system. Careers where what the characters do or did before they decided to go around adventuring.

I do agree that the basic set feels incomplete but that is being rectified. The price is a little steep but I remember forking over tons of cash for books back in the old AD&D days so to me the price for what I get is justified.

I just started getting in to the 3rd edition a month ago so I'm late to the game and this is probably why I'm not as frustrated as some so I empithize. In fact the lack of Wood Elf careers in general is disappointing to me but I'm willing to bide my time as I feel the system is worth it.

Pumpkin for the win! LOL! (That's a joke to prevent any ounce of flame wars).

Anyway I agree with absolutely everything he said and I will add, I've been gaming with 2 gamers for 16 years who didn't care about system. When it came to fighting they always had no idea what to do, asked what to roll, confused modifiers, etc. In my time I've seen time and time again brutal criticals and mutations get written down, but not the rule and often forgotten. This system not only plugs those who didn't get system into it and helps everyone remember by that shiny little card what stat modifiers they need. Also, the interface of those modifiers are so easy and require ultimately no math. These are two absolutely great boons of the mechanic (no pun intended). I absolutely believe the mutation deck is brilliant and is in theme with the game. For all the reasons pumpkin stated and, if you don't want it for x game, leave it in the box. You don't have to flip by those pages to ignore it.

Also, as far as Career content, I agree there needs to be more (more party cards too). For now, we don't play literally by the title and find simply looking at the back description beneath the name enough to plug people into careers. Also, we had a similar burgher/merchant problem (commoner/servant in our case) and let the player switch for free. It gets us by, but I'd love more careers. I hope, before the end of the year, we get something like that.

All and all I'm happy with these products. I also love the fact they actually have a business model that makes me interested in the game. Sure, we can play devil's-advocate and say they are doing this for the money. That is true, it does feed their mouths and the mouths of their children, so good for them. But, the other advantage of this system of making us want to buy the expansion is not really a devil's trick to roll around in cash. They create product we want. We buy the product. The company sells product and so will continue to make product. We buy more product, etc. The tools and expansions thus far have been great and that's why we buy them. Other "complete" games try to power everything off 1-3 core manuals (usually the GM guide is next to useless for me), and then all secondary products are by far not important.

Also, to continue with the model they are using. So you'd rather have a book of mutations and a book of magic? Each would be a stand alone roughly 30-40 dollar book. So that's 60-80. We got both for 50. All other companies release priest, magic, etc. expansions, but FFG is at fault for doing the same? I don't get it. They also give us a full on reason to buy it with all the additionals and that's a bad thing?

I wouldn't by a wizard or priest expansion. The core box gives three of each that do pretty much everything you want magic to do. If players wanted to be jade wizards, I'd tell them to buy it. But 30 bucks for 10 spells would have been hardly worth it. (this is the reason why I never bought the two magic expansions for 2e). All that money for 1 player is just not worth it to me. This way, I want the product and as a bonus give something to really expand my game overall, the careers, etc. You don't "need" it, but it makes it a worth while investment. This is the real power of the system and the "expansion" model, which I for one fully support. By supporting it, I am securing the future of Warhammer. Which in the end will give me a great deal more than it has before if the sales stay up (which based at the rate it is staying up, it must be doing well).

As for the RT, DH, and DW inter-relationship. Someday they're will be a dwarf, elf, wood elf (and hopefully Vampire, Orc, Skaven, and Chaos expansions). All will hopefully be playable. Each will be a stand alone game onto itself and interrelated. But it's hardly fair to compare 5-7 years of work to 6 months. And, based on the rate of release, it will only be a year or two before we get everything we need!

Besides, I am used to the GW model. You know, waiting 5 years for an update while my army gets stomped for 4 of those years (lol!).

Some folks are upset that even though its a 'magic expansion' it doesn't cover 'magic' completely. How many colleges are there? How many were covered between the core and boxed set? Are there any missing? See the trend? If there's 8 colleges, 3 covered in the core box, shouldn't there be 5 covered by a 'magic' product?

That appears to be the sticking point for folks. And I can't exactly fault them for that.

keltheos said:

I don't know what you're babbling about. The WoM expansion covers all 8 colleges and a lot more besides. There aren't any missing. The only thing it doesn't have that anyone could possibly feel is missing is tier 4 spells. For that matter, per the fluff, you could make the case for not that many 4th tier wizards out adventuring since most are enlisted in the army as Battle Wizards or teaching at their respective college. There's no need for a Master Wizard career because it is essentially an NPC career, not a playable one. Instead we got all the stuff on Tzeentch, his minions, spells, rules for corruption, etc. Next we'll get Nurgle in the Priest expansion, which will cover all 9 Imperial gods (but only up to tier 3 blessings for each), plus new rules for diseases and more non-priest careers. Some people would apparently have preferred to see the WoM deal only with magic and instead of the stuff on Tzeentch, give us 4 tier spells, Hedge Magic spells, High Magic, and maybe Rune Priest stuff for Dwarves as well, then lump the Tzeentch and Nurgle stuff into a separate expansion on Chaos gods, while giving us all the additional advanced careers in yet a third separate expansion. (Oh BTW, we want it all now!) That's certainly another way they could have gone and it is in fact the way the 2nd ed folks did it. I wonder if GW shared any sales figures on the previous edition with FFG? I still contend that packaged that way, each product would sell to fewer people.

For whatever reason, FFG has decided to go a different way. Not everyone is happy about that. File under, can't please all the people, all the time, but I bet their sales data support their marketing/design decisions. Furthermore, if FFG has there way, the game will never be complete. Once it is, (most) people stop buying product. Yeah there may be some people clamouring for that expansion featuring the social dynamics of various Greenskin cultures or playable Skaven careers, but most people would probably look at that as a nice to have, rather than essential. For the line to thrive, each expansion has to be essential. Otherwise, each subsequent expansion falls victim to the law of diminishing returns and at some point it isn't worth it to continue the line.

mac40k said:

Here here! We also make a broad assumption that there will be 4th and 5th tier spells available to PC's. Thus far we have nothing over tier 3. Obviously FFG has something planned for ranks 4 and 5, we'll have to wait and see. At this point, the only reason why these ranks exist is because they are mentioned in the core box. I contend all that will come to ahead, it will just come later. So be patient.

Seconded.

At first I was disappointed that things like non-human casters got sidelined, but it only makes me want that stuff more. And while they didn't give us anything above level 3 for spells, frankly, I can wait. I am happy with what I got so far and my players aren't going to grind all the way to the top in record time. I am hoping that FFG will do a lot of playtesting and analysis before they release the higher tiers so they don't break what is IMO a really good game.

commoner said:

Yer, i can understand the fact that not having a certain career detailed yet can be frustrating, especially if thats how you see your character progressing. Its not some much a lack of advanced career than seems to the the issue; just sufficient variety.

I think Commoner's way of using careers though is a great one, if you don't think "Thug" fits the concept, just rename it to something that does and use the Thug advancement options, applying that sort of logic can make the core set last long enough until we do get some more careers, but again as FFG seems to be drip feeding them via the various expansions, the careers should increase much quicker and more regularly than if we had to wait for the "career Supplement"

some more party cards would be a nice add on too, I agree.

I'm getting seriously tired of reading "the core set is incomplete" when people should be writing "the core set is missing these things that I would have wanted". LeBlanc13, I could easily call Dark heresy an incomplete game as well. What, no adepta sororitas or schola progenium background in the core rules (available in the Inquistors handbook)? No vehicle combat rules? I can only play to rank 8? I like the products (DH/RT/DW) as well but I don't find them any more complete than WFRP.

The core set is not incomplete. Using a term like complete/incomplete when writing about a game is just not constructive. I would have liked a fleshed out system for social encounters to have been included in the core set, I find that way more interesting than rank 3 wizard careers. I'm not calling the system incomplete because of that lack, hopefully rules for that will get added eventually (maybe in the "nobility"/slaanesh module). You just have to accept that an rpg will never contain everything you want. If you really really need rules for something, make them yourself. People nowadays seem to be more worried about "breaking the game" than making sure that they all have fun.

As to Winds of Magic and the lack of rank 4+ careers. I think you should try some "lateral challenges" for your players. Perhaps the wizard finds himself in a situation where he can't count on his soldier/ironbreaker friend to help him out and needs to defend himself. That non-career advance in weapon skill sure comes in handy then. Perhaps he is the only person with high intelligence in the group, first aid training is a good idea. Finally, perhaps he's away from books and other wizards, deep in the wilderness, it would make more sense for him to make a sidetrack into a non-wizard career until he gets back into society (what the wizard lords doesn't know about they cannot punish). Any of these suggestions would mean that your player(s) take longer time to reach the critical stage where there is no good career to advance into.

The most problematic careers when it comes to advancement are probably the slayer careers, but that's more of a fluff than a rules issue. And to be honest, a slayer shouldn't really expect to live long in any case.

gruntl said:

A river in Egypt.

Prezimonto,

you are not alone in your concern. While on these boards there are only the happiest one, the WFRP community I dwell into (not a virtual community), isn't so happy about the expansions policy.
Nor about contents, nor about pricing.

With all the gadgets we've gotten from expansions we can really fill out two tables for 12 people each, but play with only ~4 or ~5 players.
Ehehe, nice.

Ooook...so...the Lord of Change is a rank 3 sorcerer...why is everyone so sure that is going to be rank 4 and 5 spells? (It seems that "3" is the improvement limit...3 yellow dice on skills, rank 3 spells, 3 levels of careers...)

Haku said:

No, Lord of Change is a rank 9 sorcerer, and can choose 3 spell action cards (and 1 support) to use.

Page 21 of "Liber Mutatis":

"Tzeentch's minions may ignore any restrictions by College Magic for any Spells they have access to, up to Rank equal to its Expertise rating".

What I don't like about Lord of Change is the amount of description, when you compare it with two-two and a half page descriptions of greater demons from 2-nd ed "Tome of Corruption".

Your confusing quantity with quality, the v3 books are pretty information dense compared to the 2nd ed. Its common in the gaming industry because in a lot of cases the author gets paid by the word so like Proust they inflate their works with superlatives and fluffing, so what could have been said in 5 sentences is now half a page and I love that we are getting an almost "gurpsian" infodensity, page count doesn't matter thats just weight on my shelves (which is a counter argument since this game takes up a big, giant, huge, heavy box that I have to lug about).

That it doesn't have rules and cards for higher careers, yes its annoying, but it takes time to develop. I'd rather have the "incomplete" as you call it box that gives me 5 more orders, a new rank and rules for corruption now than wait say, 4 - 6 more months and then get a giant box that will cost as much as the core set and be just about mages, well actually I'd pay for that as well, but I'm a childless gainfully employed grownup so I have money to spare on luxury toys like these.

UncleArkie said:

Eheheh, this is picking on the analysis capacity of the other members, I think.
Sure is that after the Core Box and different expansions we have, more or less, the same "mechanical" equivalents of 2ed, and a lot less Old World described.
But we are getting more and more gadgets.

A player of mine plays now a Light Apprentice... I may say that his healing spell is really really weak... So is Shallya's first healing spell... Weaker than a regular healing. That's not okay, and that wasn't the case neither in 1st and 2nd edition. I might houserule that;

willmanx said:

Honestly, I think that is a good thing. Healing shouldn't be easy. Wounds take a while to heal and linger, making the game inherently more dangerous and grittier.

UncleArkie said:

Imo this is an unfair description of the 2nd Ed. In general it was high quality. The difference was the depth that subjects were explored. When is WFRP3 going to give us background on marriage & wizards?

I am a great fan of WFRP3, but 2nd Edition had its strengths.

Sunatet said:

This doesn't defeat Haku's point though that there might not be anything more than rank 3 spells. So far, everything caps at 3. Just because Rank can go to 5 does not necessarily mean it will have corresponding 5 ranks of actions, etc. A rank 20,0000 could ultimately only gain additional dice, etc and that's the benefit of being so high.

I don't necessarily believe that is the way it will go down, but for now, I see no use in complaining about some bad-ass spell that wasn't in the set or how much better 2e spell sets were compared to this one, etc. We have a great deal of information, a great deal of system, coupled with great mechanics and great choices on the parts of the designers. That's wonderful in my opinion and I really like my expansion. Those who feel jilted, I get their point to a point, but honestly, I think we should all just play and have a great time with this great game.

@ Deathfromabove:

I hear you about the price point thing. GW fans complain about the same thing all the time. What everyone misses though is buying products for small, miniscule markets like RPG's is what keeps it alive. I doubt Jay Little is recouping a big-fat mercedes from this game. As a matter of a fact, the assistant producer job offered 27,000 dollars with tons of Over time. RPG'S don't rake in cash. So can you blame them for wanting to take a profit margin to stock holders to show them it is a product worth supporting? Profit is usually spent on further expansions and good material (that's what other companies do). Do you really want the expansion rate to slow down because the game doesn't sell? Do you want the designers to be able to eat? Because at 27K for the assistant producer job, that's really not that big of a chunk of change. That's not too far removed from the poverty level (like a distant cousin). It also makes no mention in the add of benefits, so my guess is for a small company like FFG, they're not the greatest.

Sorry to put so much emphasis on the fiscal reality of the products, but honestly, complaining about price is generally not looking at reality. We have watched dozens onto dozens of companies grow, die and fail in the RPG market. Why? Because all we ever have to buy, on average , is one core for four people and four bags of dice for us to game forever with that game. That's roughly 40 bucks to one company (out of 160 possible dollars) and ten dollars on dice to a different company. There is just no good way to build a business model around that. And non-required, super-specific, expansions does not help that. Most people don't buy the expansions, instead, they wander off to pick up a new game they'll play for a month or two, before letting it rot on a shelf for most of its lifespan to go back to the game they always love.

So yeah, I grumble I'm buying so many products, but I don't actually have to buy them all (I just want to, as probably most the grumblers do in your area). But I also look at the reality behind the product I'm buying and say, fifty bucks for some fancy cards and do-dads, that's only ten more bucks than x game's expansion manual, so why the heck not. I bring that up because it's not so much more expensive than any other RPG for each individual product. FFG has just done a great job of making each product worth owning. Oh no, heaven forbid quality for my money. Maybe it was better buying those horrible splat books for 3e for the various classes, each one had a funny name, like song of shadows: the rogue players guide. Twenty five bucks for a book with twelve feats, about ten prestige classes you'd never see and printed on black and white almost-newsprint quality paper. Or the terrible Clan books for vampire and those God Aweful Werewolf Tribebooks for twenty bucks a pop by White Wolf...those ones with a huge, badly written narrative of some pup off on their maiden voyage. But, I digress. Hey, maybe I am wrong. Maybe that is better than an expansion with quality material at an affordable price?

Commoner,

I dont shell out money to collect expansions.
I will not win any race, I think, as the GM with the most expansions in the world.

commoner said:

Yes, You are right Commoner.

This doesn't defeat Haku's point. But seeing all the material we have been given till now (with glimpses of higher rank wizards), I seriously doubt FFG will stop at Rank 3 (imagine the whine, screams and outrage if they did).

As to the second part, well yes, and no on my part.

Yes, this is a great system, with great mechanics, and many great choises, but it is not perfect.

And only by saying what we don't necessarily like can we point FFG to matters that they can do better.

If we stay silent of what we miss, or don't like, then we don't get it.

I'm not saying that we get anything if we keep talking about it, but at least we can hope.

So on my part:

I think that WoM is the best addon for v3 so far. Its great, satisfying enough, full of usefull stuff, and contains things I never saw before. And I don't care about the price. I understand that it is required for this system to continue on, and I'm happy to pay.

But I also think, that monsters could use some more care. They feel like a cannon fodder to me, something you fight and forget (especially the more powerfull ones like mentioned Lord of Change - I got the stats and powers, but barely description, no adventure ideas v2 like, no hooks, no manifestation description v2 like - the things that gave the life to this demon are missing). I would love to see more description on them. I would love to see monster cards. I would love to see an image depicting each of the monsters described. But that's just me

And the maps (Gathering Storm). I think that everyone agree on that. Maps.

FFG seems to have chosen a common format for monsters, three per two pages stats and actions on the right and right up on the left. I like this game a lot. It is the first RPG I have purchased in 4 years! Perhaps for important bad guys they could go to one monster per two pages. This would allow a bigger write up and keep the same format, which I do like.

I think the price of these products is fine. I also like the mixed nature of the products, some stuff for charecters, some for GM, a little fluff, cards, and fiddly bits. I want to buy them all. But I can see the concern of others, who are younger and have less income then I do. My feeling though is that hobbyists are aging, and they will pay for better products.

I didn't mean it as an unfair attack on 2nd edition, it was a good game and the first half of the books published in its run were amazing, FFG are going to have a HARD time topping the Old World Beastiary or the Knights of the Grail. However the books where very inflated, the writing itself good, but a lot of times it took a little too much time saying something. Now the v3 core book is almost the opposite of this to the point where it becomes almost unreadable while the rest of the books in the core set are very impressive indeed, good solid information presented without too much fuss. Someone commented that they wanted to see more about the culture and life in the Empire, which is what the next box will most likely give us, much religion and ritual, also I will make an ass out of myself and assume that it will have the same format as the magic box. Now all I can say is that I hope they include squires and knight in this one since the Knights of the White Wolf and the Raven guard are such big parts of their respective religions, I really do hope that they make them in the same image as the mages and priests with orders being little "talent" cards.

Now to address the concern, I have a feeling that we will see a box set, maybe sometime next year that contains higher rank magic, high magic and a more in depth look at chaos, that would be a dream come true .

Sunatet said:

Oh, I totally agree we will see rank 4 and 5 stuff in the future. I do believe there may be a rules adjustment for character's of that high rank, as they have mentioned the possibility of additional dice in the line from a previous diary, "the expertise dice is the only die yet to have the sigmar's comet." Honestly, I think they are working out system kinks at high levels. Hopefully so that rank 4 & 5 character's don't have such an easy time of it. I would also be fine with a mechanic like this that somehow adjusts the entire system one step toward making it actually difficult to do things at high level. I imagine that may be an intent of this game as people with 9 dice can sort of cake walk through everything.

I never really thought about the monster issue before, as I've been with warhammer for twenty years, so I guess I get their background to a lot of stuff. With that being said, I can definitely see your point about wanting more description and detail toward them. However, I do sort of view the entire Book of Change to be one massive description of Lord of Change, from the nature of corruption, to the temptation, etc. I feel the Greater Demon may be intended to reflect it. Of course, that's reading a lot into it, lol!

A monster box would be nifty, but I'd rather see a completion of the player's side first before some bestiary is released. I'd also prefer a playable beastiary expansion. Monster Manuals are useful, but not all that useful and I'd like to see, in whatever form it takes, it be useful to the players as well in some capacity. (Personally, I would prefer expansions like army books where you can play the various dark denizens with specially flavored monsters chucked in).

I also agree the system isn't perfect, nothing is, but it is pretty close and I feel a lot of the problems are on preferences. Such as I would have preferred no action recharge. I also would have preferred lower starting characteristics for the characters and characteristic caps for each rank (as to prevent stat-dumping). I would have also like to see a bit of a more complex advancement system. I also would have loved more balanced action cards. Dramatic Flourish as compared to Acrobatic Strike is a no brainer; don't take Dramatic Flourish unless you are doing so for narrative reasons. But these are all preferences that are easily modified and the action card problem only really applies to a handful of cards, that are easily modified.

As I've said before, Winds of Magic is a great expansion and is way worth the dollar investment.

@ Deathfromabove:

I never said this was Pokemon. You actually don't have to catch them all unless you want to, lol! My point was, the expansions are useful and the dollars spent keeps the company afloat and the game being published. I do feel bad for people who can't afford it, honestly, but I do like the way releases are happening for the game and I personally don't want it to stop.

Also, I still stand by my comment that a priest and wizard expansion aren't all that vital to game-play, even in this format. A Wizard expansion only effects one character out of four in a gaming group, typically and given the limits of Warhammer, that means only roughly 10-12 spells (even in second edition). The same goes for priests. You actually don't need the careers printed in there as they are semi-redundant with existing careers, just a more specifically tailored version of them. Scholar is one part scribe, one part student. Now, I do love the careers and am happy I have them, but they aren't all that necessary, as many of the careers in 2e were ignored for a common handful that could have been the same career, just warhammer chose to divide them. I am happy they do, I like the flavor, but they are not "vital" components to the game. In previous games (like DND) we wasted a huge amount of money on giant lists of spells, most of which we never use/see. This exists in all RPG's (even 3e). I'm glad these highly specialized components have been spliced out as I did not waste initial space for them. The fact this expansion made it worthwhile to purchase for other reasons, for me, is great as I would never, ever buy a wizard/priest expansion if all I got was a handful of careers and more spells. I never bought them for 2e as it seems to be a huge waste of money for little pay off.

And for a guy who doesn't want to "collect" all the expansions, don't you think it's handy you actually don't have to? I mean if they split it into a Priest Book, A Wizard Book, and a Chaos Book would you have bought all those? 2e did it that way and so does every major company, the book of baddies, the book of specialized good guys, the book of other specialized good guys, etc. The only difference is 3e will give you 3 expansions that serve the function of 3 expansion books, just formatted differently. I don't really see the difference here, other than the way they have created more bang for our buck. That's like buying a car where they throw in an MP3 player for free.