I have a few thoughts.

First, is that the lack of 4th and 5th tier wizard advanced classes and spells is severely angering me. My understanding of the magic expansion was that it would finish off the "missing" magic careers. This does NOT do that. In fact, it shamelessly sets up parties with a mage to purchase yet another expansion. Don't get me wrong, I do not mind the limited release scheme that FFG has developed for 3e, but this is gratuitous and shameful.

Second, the chaos book covers a much larger range of options than I was expecting from this release. In fact, the enemies and corruption points will go a long way to making the game more deadly. This somewhat ameliorates my severe rage at seeing an incomplete set of advanced classes and spells for wizards in the magic expansion, but not entirely.

Please, finish what you start FFG. Don't release complete sub sets of the game in bits and pieces to force your players to purchase continued expansions just to flesh out one set of advanced careers. You're not putting out of expansions fast enough to keep up with character progression in the game, which angers players as their characters can't advance to the career they had assumed would be available. Which in turn causes groups to set the game aside in favor of more finished products. You also piss off gm's who have to continue to shell out for expansions just to flesh out the parts of the game they actually want to incorporate. I would much rather see a complete magic expansion with respect to wizards and separate expansions for the chaos enemies, this bit-by-bit approach. At least that way I would know what I can expect in an expansion. As it stands I'll be waiting for complete details on a 3e product post release before even considering investing in it.

TLDR: While the expansion contains a good amount of content, please release expansions that are less a conglomeration of releated topics in favor of completely fleshing out a single topic.

Is your group almost done with Rank 3?

Prezimonto said:

How often do you play and how many points are you dishing out at a time?

Maybe it is time to halt the fast progress for the party, cause FFG is not going to suddenly change their production plan. It has been set more then a year ago and will not change for the coming years.

Some math: 3 careers and not any points going into the career transitions or none-career advances.

That means 30 points and if you give 1 point per session, then you have 30 sessions before the 4th career problem swings in.

If you dish out 2 points, then it is 15 sessions and so forth.

This is how I have been planning my group progress. We cant play that often with one group, so those guys get around 2 per session.

I might give the other group much less, if they want to play more often and they get over 15 session before next spring, when hopefully FFG ships out 4th and 5th rank careers.

It should also be said that wizards don't have to take the next linear wizard career to stay a wizard. Winds of Magic addresses this. You can play a wizard to 4th and 5th rank easily with what we have. You just can't play a Battle Wizard.

Of course, if they did flesh out a full 1-5 wizard progression rather than focus on Tzeentch, then people would be complaining of their "severe rage" over not having corruption rules, dark magic, and mutation.

I'm really hoping that the general lack of advanced careers problem get's a solution soon. It's why we quit and had to switch to crappy-D&D-stuff. Awesome world. Awesome game. Lack of diversity in vertical advancement is this games #1 big problem. I hope it gets solved before other groups are forced to look elsewhere.

How about a quick "Web Enhancement" for the game that throws us a few bones for advancement for regular careers?

[dead horse..beaten again until the horse learns its lesson]

jh

We don't play all that often(busy schedules average between 1 and 2 sessions a month probabaly) and generally award between 1 and 2 points for a 3 act adventure. We started playing the week after the game was released and our most advanced characters are finishing tier 2 or start tier 3 with the next session. That being said, as noted, it looks like it will another year or so before more wizard advanced careers are released.

And I disagree that, I at least, would be angry about a Winds of Magic supplement that advertises advanced careers and fleshing out the orders of magic spells and careers, actually DID THAT instead of adding in other features which could well fit in a completely different focused supplement.

This generally makes me feel that this supplement is adding features they wished they could have afforded to put into the base game, again, like the adventurer's toolkit.... instead of feeling like a complete finished supplement on magic. Sigh.. and the ATK... why oh why are ironbreakers, wardancers, and swordmasters, basic careers?

Essentially the Winds of Magic suppliment takes WFRP3 to the same level - all colleges at 3rd tier - that WFRP2 had in the core rulebook.

This Winds of Magic suppliment is not an advanced magic expansion - it's a completion to the basic wizard core mechanics. The core mechanics will be completed by the Priest book coming soon. In addition, the WoM includes a book on Tzeentch & an adventure.

As many, many people have pointed out, the 1st 'core' box was an incomplete system. The true core will be/is:

Main WFRP3 Box

Adventurer Toolkit

GM Toolkit

Winds of Magic

Signs of Faith

Next year we can expect advanced suppliments .

I can feel the OP's frustration, but personally I am the complete opposite.

I really like the way that the FFG products (including the adventures) are all expanding on the system as a whole rather than just concentrating on one core topic, even the advenutres do this by adding in certain types of magic that can be used in home brew adventures,

I've said it before and I'll say it again, it reminds me very much of the old school DnD red basic set followed by expert and beyond. FFG's releases as slightly more themed than the DnD ones were, but still contain enough interesting stuff such that things like the gathering storm is worth picking up even if you don't intend running it, and WoM is worth getting even if you don't have a wizard in the party. Call it a clever marketing ploy if you want, and perhaps it is, but i buy into it completely and I for one would very much hope that FFG continue to bring out products in the way they have so far.

Then again, I don't really buy into this desperate need for advanced careers, but i think in this system advanced careers seems to be filling a specific role in the society rather than something a PC has to enter to feel like they are progressing; in previous editions some of the higher level stat advances were only available in the advanced careers, not so in this system, where up to know the advanced careers have been more thematic and more or a life style choice than a neccessity for advancement.

Granted, wizards and priests do have a linear progression, but is it really a big deal to take a side line basic career in the interim till the next set of advanced levels come out, or play smaller campaigns where level isn't such and problem?

Each to their own, I guess, but i felt the need to post just to offer up an alternative view to the OP's just to make FFG aware that not everyone feels like that

What's an OP?

Fresnel said:

Original Poster

I second what Pumpkin says. This actually makes every product viable and something I want to purchase. Long, long gone was the day I bought everything for an RPG and right now, I have bought every expansion/module and don't plan on stopping. Why? Because of all the repeatable use goodies that come in the set. I wouldn't have bought the module if it only covered the adventure, with nothing besides a monster or two thrown in, but the additional cards (conditions, actions, wounds, LOCATION, etc.), make it all worth while to purchase. I might have passed on Winds if it was solely a Wizard's box because, lets face it, a 50 (or 30) dollar box for one player is not a wise investment. If a player wanted to play a Wizard besides the three I have, I'd tell them to buy the box. Then again, with the rules of the colleges as they are, 30 bucks for 12 spells is again, not really worth it at all. However...the locations, the non-magic careers, the corruption system, the mutations, the monsters, the additional miscast cards, make it all worth while for the dollar investment. I totally disagree FFG should ditch this strategy and switch to another one. It is a prize winning formula and I hope they apply it to all their expansions.

Secondly...so far the entire game is geared toward rank 3. I don't think we're going to get repeat boxes of advanced winds of magic, etc. I imagine we're going to get a 4-5 tier box, like a core box, that covers the game at high level. IF this is true, I love the idea. Most campaigns/games fizzle around the amount of sessions required to reach rank 3 - 30 or so, is roughly over half a year and I generally find passed seven months attention begins to dwindle. That way, if you don't ever intend to go that far you didn't waste money on buying level twenty rules when you only ever play to about level 12.

Honestly, my group has played roughly 72 sessions since the game came out. Yes we have lives. Yes I go to school and have a full time job. Yes I have a live-in girlfriend, no I don't have kids, but yes we have gamed roughly twice a week since the set came out. So yes, we could be actually rank 7 by now, but our pace is insane. I also saw it coming and revamped the advancement system (which is alright, in my opinion for quick games, but not extensive play. So we have barely broken rank 2.

@ Emirikol:

Ah, the dead horse. I do hope for your sake they do eventually release a more strict tier system of leveling. However I don't think that will ever really be the case. I don't see it going thief, great thief, master thief, etc. 2e didn't do this either (except with some careers). I think we'll always have less Advances and it will never be a picture perfect vertical level like DND. I'm sure the problem will eventually be fixed with a fistful of options for the major arch-types, but over time. I also believe the design idea is to create less advanced and more basic, giving players way more options starting (which I enjoy) rather than bone-picker and the like. The Commoner career greatly summarized about 1/3 of the old careers, which I view as a good step forward. We got a few new advanced careers in this set, such as scholar and wizards, but I don't know when that will cover "everything." I honestly don't know what you're group is looking for or why the title Thug is such a turn off, but we generally ignore the title, look at a little idea about it and use the "concept" of the career, rather than the actual career and we've had no problem with leveling at all. Hell, we use Gambler as a guy who takes risks, who goes against the odd. An advanced "thief" or "thug" could easily become an "Agent" to represent his advancement in skill.

But, that's me kicking the horse you're busy beating, screaming, why don't you work!

I think the thing that frustrated me the most while going through the expansion is the feel that the game is turning into an never ending series of expansions that I'm going to have to feel obligated to purchase. As you say, IF they do a single tier 4 and 5 expansion for characters once they're done with this series of "basic" expansions it will end up being more palatable than if they then start in on the "advanced expansions".

Realistically, however, it looks to me like the basic expansions will cover at least four to five more boxes given the way they are releasing content. Wizard/tzeetch, priest/nurgle, I'd guess will be followed with military/Khorn and politics or guile based characters/ slaanesh, dwarves/greenskins, elves/darkelves. Somewhere I'm still hoping for halflings, so perhaps an empire expansion with skaven.

The problem I see with a single advanced tier box after all those expansions are released is cost. They already can't afford to put what most games do into a single box because cards and fiddly bits (some of which are very nice, some of which, i know my group ignores) cost more than printing a few extra pages in a book. Just tier 4 and 5 spells for wizards will take up about 1.5 decks of cards... certainly at least one full deck. If they don't plan on adding anything other than spells for wizards/priests/enemies in the box they might stay to the 2 deck limit they've kept in expansions. The more basic expansions they release before getting to high tier characters and play, the more expansions they're have to release of high tier play to keep them affordable. I wish they had just incorporated higher tier play from the start.

As I noted in the starting thread I do appreciate getting the extra enemy book. It is nice, and it will help expand the game. I would much rather have purchased a chaos expansion, knowing I was expanding those options specifically, than the Wind of Magic expansion as it stands. The release program FFG has adopted for this game feels relatively scatter-shot and poorly organized, like they don't really know where they want the game to progress themselves, and instead have decided to release what they've got done right now.

Prezimonto said:

Seriously? Severe rage over what amounts to a luxury toy? I'd hate to hear how mad you get when something actually bad happens.

I couldn't be more impressed with Winds of Magic , and to expect even more from an expansion already packed to the gills seems silly. I'd rather they pace themselves and do it right than rush out extra ranks of cards. I mean, even if they had rank 4 and 5, wouldn't there be someone complaining that they didn't go all the way to rank 129?

Honestly, it more falls in the frame of extreme frustration over not seeing what I both expected and felt was the logical content to include coupled with the concern over the trend it establishes for expansion content.

I'm not trying to troll it up, I am trying to express legitimate concern. I do appreciate the general tone this thread has so far taken, more reasoned, reasonable responses than I think I could have honestly hoped for when posting.

I think that Prezimonto raises a fair concern. For a group that can play a lot this is a real concern especially for Mage/Priest characters.

But for many groups this is a non-issue. For me the chance I would ever get a group to 4th level seems extreme. 33 advances seem like a lot, and the rate of play I expect: about twice every three months a non-issue. This is also can be mitigated by having players use the pick system to start this makes starting as a Priest/Mage less likely. If they had to transition into casting career then they might be at 36-44 advances depending on how long they stayed with their starting career.

My guess is that they will come out with a level 4 box set and a level 5+ box set. Rather than a high level magic and high level priest set. Level sets can contain careers for all types of characters and enemies that match up with that level. I also expect that we will see adventures at these levels coming out at the same time.

So in summary: this approach doesn't bother me, but I can see why it would bother some like Prezimonto.

The OP's problem is he fears that he will have to buy each new product. Sounds like a pretty sound business plan to me. Seriously FFG, why can't you make the product that I want and am willing to spend money on and package it separately so I don't have to buy the stuff that doesn't interest me? That's essentially what the OP is asking for and with the high production cost of this game, that way lies the quick demise of the line. I find it hard to fault FFG for trying to make each expansion appeal to the widest number of buyers. Narrowly focused products would sell to a much smaller number of customers who had a specific interest in that particular subject. Now if you were a business and you could release 4 focused $50 products, each of which would sell to 1/4 of your market, or 3 $50 products that would potentially sell to 80% of your market, which would you prefer?

This is a problem that game companies face who can't compete with the Wizards of the Coast's ability to flood the market with product every month. Gamers are generally looking for the next shiny object. If a gaming company can't produce quickly enough to keep these individuals happy, they move on. I'm not talking monthly. People can get by with quarterly releases. The issue is the products need to be complete to be effective.

WFRP3 has to balance putting out quality products with putting out a complete product in a timely fashion.

It seems with DH and RT so far, these systems have found a way to put out complete products that are high quality.

With a system like WFRP3, The core box was incomplete. Box sets are released with additional card sets. Some classes are not fully fleshed out. It's not coming across as a complete system and the release schedule is sluggish at best. While it's true that the components are quality, I think personally that WFRP3 is a FAIL so far.

Within the first year if you can't put out a complete "basic" system for even low level characters, something is wrong with your business model.

A month or so ago, I sold off my WFRP stuff. I wasn't able to convince my current group to play an "incomplete system" and no one in my local game store seemed interested in playing either.

Patience is a virtue that's in short supply!

mac40k said:

holy crap! an appeal to reasonableness, logic, basic economic principals, foresight, and a complete absence of whining...what is going on here?

LeBlanc13 said:

This is a lot of where my frustration is coming from. I appreciate the game, it runs smoothly, adapts well to combat and non-combat role-play, and is fun to play. In general, its very high quality in terms of production values. If anything I think the fault lies in pushing the production values too high. For instance, there was absolutely no need to put the mutation cards in the game as cards instead of a table in a book. The same thing with characters cards, its gimicky and not needed for any reason other than a show piece. It would have been much better, for the people playing the game, to have a more complete system faster... perhaps not a lot faster, but also at a lower cost.

When I saw the 100$ price tag of the starting set I looked at what was in the box and agreed it seemed like it was worthwhile. When you compare to most other game systems which produce a series of three to four book to cover similar content I wasn't put out. But the game isn't complete. The Base game (levels 1 - 3) isn't complete. Heck levels 1 -2 aren't all in that starting box. Ok, so a few supplements to finish fleshing that out for a complete base game. I can shell out for a few expansions. You say I'm whining about cost. I'm not. I'm saying their release model is forcing to reconsider spending my money, instead of the reverse where I would likely have purchased the first several expansions with no questions asked.

At the end of the day, whether I like the game or not, there's about 6 of us playing regularly(though not at the same sessions) and if enough of those other people become frustrated with the pace and type of content in the game they'll start lobbying that we go back to other games. For my group, this would be much less of an issue if a more tradition style of products was developed and/or the base game provided the content that is normally found that a base product. As I see the argument, the company is being smart by using a business model to force people to purchase every expansion. My point is that its forcing my group to reconsider continuing to invest money in the game.

To me it feels as if one of the problems of the 3rd edition is that people expect it to cover the same areas and offer the same options as the 2nd edition did. Since I only ever played the first edition – and that was a long time ago – where we never got to finish The Enemy Within and only reached the end of rank two, the core set never felt incomplete in itself. I guess it would only have felt incomplete if I was looking to do things that I would have done with a really far advanced 2nd hero character. But I never played such a character. Because of this, and because on the strong emphasis on horizontal advancement, I never saw my 1st edition character as a real hero. To me, this is what Warhammer FRP is all about: low powered characters that will probably never ever become really powerful. Because before that they will either die, become insane or mutate beyond comprehension. There might be rank four or five NPCs, but that is not my world, I am just a lowly pawn that sometimes might succeed in giving large events this tiny little nudge that might move them in another direction. It is a grim and perilous world.

But of course I understand that people who have dug through many expansions, who played the good guys into the Emprie in Flames, who played evil Skaven bands and vanquished Vampire Lords feel different and they have my sympathy.

for me, what FFG has offered so far is pretty good – with a few disappointments (quibbly ones like the ridiculous lack of beastman standups when one takes into account that all of the adventures so far have features tons of beastmen, more serious ones like the GM set which I got only today and which seems a bit unspectacular or the mediocre editing in several places, and minor annoyances like the lack of options to get proper errata cards)

To sum up my main argument : if WFRP would have been a first edition, that would introduce us into a new setting, then I guess people might not have noticed such a lack of advancement options and taken the system for what it is.

On the other hand , without the existing material, especially the huge amount of fluff about the world and the many excellent adventures that can be converted, WFRP 3rd edition might have been a bit too light, so maybe there is something to the complaints about the way the core set and the first expansions were handled?

Whatever, I am a happy camper and I look forward to many fun sessions with a group of complete RPG novices who enjoy themselves tremendously in this wonderful and grim setting!

post overlap! please forgive my double-post

Prezimonto said:

To me and my completely uninitiated players, the card based stuff worked wonderfully. I am quite sure that one reason why I actually got them on the hook was to downplay the huge amount of rules by just handing out career cards one evening and getting them to look at them and take home those that they liked to further ponder their options. If I would have drawn out one huge manual (like the 1st edition thingy that I have) or two or three smaller books with lots of tables, then they would just have made the same anti-roleplaying jokes that they made fifteen years ago: “Hehe and then I am taking my pencil +10 to attack you. *rolls eyes*”

But (there is always a but) this is a very peculiar situation and things would most certainly have been quite different if I would have introduced this game to the RPG buffs that I know…

WFRP 3rd Ed has a real perk or flaw depending on how you see the character progress.

How many other systems can take a player from "level 1" to the very top in under a RL year?

I like the idea that a you can see a character through to the end in a relativly short time.

Insert negative anti 3E comment here.

Hold breath.

Move on.

I actually like this format of releasing books/gameproducts to a certain extent. I would much rather have to buy a new book that comes out in 3 or 4 months to get update then the have to wait a YEAR AND A F'N HALF for ONLY WAR for Dark Heresy.

I can imagine me buying a few 3E stuff now that they have supplements and source materialto read. Stromfels does interest me. If it has lots of fluff I could be convinced, but if it is rules intense, card overloaded, I am less incline to spend the money.

THe PDF however.

HM<MMMM.

The big difference is that DarkHeresy is a fairly complete game in a single book. In addition, Rogue Trader and the space marine RPG are all interchangeable with rules sets... so you have a fair amount of expanded universe content for the the system.

@ ozean

I agree completely that the game is well designed for introducing new people to role playing games. But as a group that actively set 2e down to pick up 3e, and, generally, found they liked how 3e plays... the lack of content which is starting to show. Though, again, I do appreciate the new enemies. To date 3e hasn't been deadly enough, corruption will help and so will disease.

On that note, does anyone else miss criticals that permanently mangle body parts? I know mangled eye with a rating of 4 is in Gathering Storm, but other than that, where's the loped off hands and missing legs? Often 2e characters would retire before death due to being mangled, 3e characters seem to survive large, or die outright.