Quick question,

When both "valar morghulis and wild fire assault" plot cards are played at the same time then wild fire assault is nullified. Because no matter what order they are resolved in everybody dies. Correct?

Pretty much. If saves are around then some stuff might survive. but either way it won't really matter which order they go off in.

The important thing here is that Wildfire is not actually "nullified." You still have to resolve both plots.

Having both revealed at the same time turns into managing save effects, really. If you can save 4 characters from Valar, you aren't going to want to since only 3 will survive Wildfire. In that situation, Wildfire becomes the limiter rather than Valar.

Happy to read you again Ktom !

Hello all ! The Martell's madman is back into the pack !

Order is important in some cases.

For example if one has 5 characters, maester wendamyr, salt wife, victarion, balon, and euron with aegon;s blade and support for harlaw.

Now at this stage you might want to keep the characters that have renown and what-not. If valar happens first I can use wendamyr to save euron, salt wife to save balon... and say an iron mine to save victarion. Then i have my 3 for wildfire.

If wildfire goes first to keep anything on the board id have to reduce it to wendamyr + 2 of the 3 characters i really want to keep. And then wendamyr would also die (unless i had 2 influence). Netting me 2 characters and most likely lost power.

So order can matter when saving is involved.

And please, I actually can't remember which of the characters there have "ironborn" trait, i simply used them as examples, dont derail the thread to call me on that... this is a forum not a game.

bloodycelt said:

this is exactly what i did to dobbler in the swiss of worlds last year, having anticipated his valar... definitely the point at which he began to spiral downward into oblivion ;-)

~It is a very fun oblivion to rest in considering my hardware

bloodycelt said:

Actually, this isn't true. If Wildfire goes first and you let Wendamyr and the Salt Wife die, they are still on the board (in moribund) when Valar is resolved. So their saves are still on the board and actionable, even though they have technically already died. Order doesn't actually matter in the situation you gave.

o_0: Why would they still be moribund?

I'm looking at the chart in the faq my reading of seems that it can be interpreted as All plot when revealed are part of a single framework action... I guess I've always seen and treated each plot when revealed as a seperate framework action.

But looking at the chart... it does seem that while we recusivly go though steps 1 - 5 until all responses and passive responses are exhausted for a particular action or event and THEN cards remaining moribund go to their destinations.

bloodycelt said:

Because revealing plots and resolving all of them happen in a single framework action window. As such, anything that is made moribund by plot #1 is moribund and is not removed from the table until after all plots are resolved, all passives are resolved and all Responses are played. In the end, this is about all that can be said on the subject.

bloodycelt said:

If you look at the FAQ text in addition to the charts, you'll find this:

(2.2) Plot Effect Resolution
Continuous or constant plot effects take effect
immediately and simultaneously, as soon as
the plot cards are revealed. The first player
determines the order in which all "when
revealed" plot effects are resolved. "When
revealed" plot effects are essentially self-referential
passive effects that initiate in response
to the revealing of the plot card with the
"when revealed" effect. They are resolved (in
the order determined by the first player) during
step 4 of the action window in which the
plot card was revealed. All "when revealed"
plot effects must resolve before any other passive
effects initiated by the revealing of a plot
card(s) are resolved.

Pretty clearly, the "when revealed" effects of both Valar and Wildfire are treated as passive effects and resolved in Step 4 of the action window. Just like any other time you have 2 passive effects, anything removed from play by effect #1 is still moribund and on the table while effect #2 is resolving.

bloodycelt said:

For clarification, you do not go recursively through steps 1-5 for each framework event. You go recursively through steps 1-3 for each framework event, then proceed to a common steps 4-6 for all framework events.

I don't have the faq in front of me... but I thought that passive responses were step 4 and triggered responses where step 5 (and in the framework these would be cards like golden tooth mines) but say that new bara card which responds to gtm would be step 5 in golden tooth mine's individual steps 1-5.

Or for the moribund thing:

A military battle plot is revealed.

Step 5: Triggered response the event (i forget the name) kills a character when a military battle plot is revealed.

This steps into the Event's framework window and on step 2 of that window you can save the character... however reading the faq... it seems that the character killed by this event does not go moribund in the events framework, but in the plot phase framework. This means if another response killed another character (step 5 of step 5 in this case) .... err

PLOT FRAMEWORK

1. Plots are revealed

2. Save/Cancel Responses (I don't think there are any here...)

3. Action is resolved (as in the plots are all face up.)

4. -> Wildfire -

1. Initiate kill all but 3.

2. Old Bear cancel's wildfire. > 1. Initiate cancel. Old Bear is moribund here or step 2 there...

2. Viper's Bite cancels. -> 1 - Initiate cancel.

2. No responses.

3. Old Bear is canceled.

4. No passive responses.

5. No triggered responses.

3. Old Bear does not resolve.

4. So... does this step happen... if not where would a passive response to the death of mormont actually be?

5.

3. Players choose 3 the rest go moribund.

4. Passive responses to the death of characters.

5. Here I could trigger parting blow to kneel a survivng character like say wendamyr. I don't think you can kneel a moribund character. Also Rhaegar could trigger which could stop valar from happening.

-> Valar

1. Initiate Everyone dies.

2. Wendamyr is knelt (or moribund and not knelt... hmm) however salt wife does save Victarion -> Steps 1 - 5.

3. Ok now everyone goes moribund except victarion.

4 - 5: See above.

5. This is where Golden Tooth Mines would trigger. And inside that would be the bara event.

6. Ok now everything goes to where it belongs (dead pile, discard pile, nate's slush pile.)

I think you overlooking the fact that all passives are resolved before non-save/cancel responses.

From the FAQ:

"After any passive abilities triggered as a
result of the action or save/cancel response
are resolved, players may now play normal
responses in clockwise order (starting with
the player to the left of the player who initi-
ated the action). As described above, a player
may trigger normal responses for any oppor-
tunity that has occurred at any time during
this Action Window - either spurred from the
action itself, or spurred from other responses,
or passive abilities, resolved previously during
the Action Window."

So you should delete your 4.Wildfire.2.2.4, 4.Wildfire.2.2.5, 4.Wildfire.2.4, 4.Wildfire.2.5, 4.Wildfire.4, 4.Wildfire.5, 4.Valar.4, and 4.Valar.5.

All of those ending in 4 (ie all of the Passives) will be resolved one by one after Valar is resolves. All of the stuff going on here is within one singular framework action window with one common step 4 for passives and one common step 5 for responses. You resolve Wildfire and Valar first because the rules tell you to resolve plot "when revealed" passives first but otherwise they are just passives like all the other passives initiated due to their effects. (The one that messes up this structure all passives first and then all responses is when a response in step 5 triggers a new passive. In that case, you basically go back to step 4 until there are again no more passives to resolve). For example, Golden Tooth Mines is a passive and triggers in step 4, not step 5. You chart should have a 4.GTM section after 4.Valar. Resolving GTM's effect is equivalent to resolving Valar and Wildfire. It just must resolve after all "when revealed" plot effects.

Rhaegar can not trigger until all passives are resolved so he can not stop Valar.

Well looking at the FAQ:

Step 4 first breaks down to septs i to iv (initiate, save/cancel, execute, other passive abilities) however the execute part says do steps i to v . Also Rhaegar would not respond to the framework action "Plots are revealed" but to the passive ability of Wildfire. (Step 5 as far as I know is limited to specificly cards that respond to the revealing of a plot. for this Framework action.) This seems contrary to the faq you posted. I do know this is not how people actualy play normaly. We always resolve everything for each plot in plot order. But the faq changes things. For example one could not wildfire and use parting blow to kneel wendamyr before valar resolved (to stop him from saving). Granted that's never come up.

Sorry, but you are just very wrong on a lot of that particular flow chart. I don't have time to map it out properly right now. I'll try to do it later.

Your main mistake is that you are Responding to everything individually. It doesn't work like that. The framework action for revealing plots looks like this:

Step 1a: Initiate "Reveal Plots" framework event
Step 2a: Save/Cancel opportunity to "Reveal Plots" framework event
Step 3a: Resolve "Reveal Plots" (all players' chosen plots are now their current, reveal plots)

Step 1b: Initiate "Count Initiative" framework event
Step 2b: Save/Cancel opportunity to "Count Initiative" framework event
Step 3b: Resolve "Count Initiative" (someone officially "wins" initiative)

Step 1c: Initiate "High Initiative chooses First Player" framework event
Step 2c: Save/Cancel opportunity to "Chooses First Player" framework event
Step 3c: Resolve "Chooses First Player" framework event (someone officially becomes the First Player for the round)

Step 4: Starting with "When Revealed" plot text, passives to anything that happened in Step 1.a - Step 3.c, or earlier in Step 4. The formula for individual passive effects is:
Step 4.I Initiate
Step 4.II Save/Cancel Opportunity
Step 4.III Resolve.
(Note that you do NOT get to play Responses to plot #1 before initiating/resolving plot #2.)

Step 5: Responses to anything that happened in Step 1.a - Step 4, or earlier in Step 5. The formula for individual Response effects is:
Step 5.I Initiate
Step 5.II Save/Cancel Opportunity
Step 5.III Resolve
Step 5.IV Passives

Step 6: End (remove all cards made moribund in Steps 1.a - Step 5)

You are adding in a lot of passive and Response steps that simply do not exist.

bloodycelt said:

Well, one thing I learned from ktom is that the FAQ text trumps the FAQ flowcharts when there is a discrepancy. I honestly am not sure what it means by "Follow steps I through V, etc." in the flowchart. There are no steps in the FAQ labeled with capital Roman numerals through V. The only series of steps I see going through at least five things are that for Marshalling a card (not relevant) and that for resolving an action window (I don't think we want to start resolving action windows within action windows). So I choose to ignore that "Follow steps I through V, etc." instruction. There are sufficient instructions in the FAQ to resolve an action window without the flowcharts, and there is no mention of these steps I through V in the text.

Step 5 is never limited to responses to a framework action. Responses to anything that has occurred during the action window (framework actions, passives, other responses, etc) can be responded to during step 5. This is what the passage I quoted before says. You are correct about Wildfire/Valar/Parting Blow/Wendamyr - save responses to Valar will need to be triggered before non-save/cancel responses to any passive may be triggered.

schrecklich said:

I think it's simply a mistake - it should be IV not V and arrow should be one box lower.

BTW is it that hard for FFG to correct this? They don't care or just don't know about it?

ktom said:

You're right... I've been going with that each card effect created its own window. Normally this has no difference aside from a more enforced order of things but in cases like wildfire and valar at the same time... or card like RBD it starts to matter.

Rogue30 said:

Ah, that makes sense. It's still a little bit ambiguous to me since there are steps I-IV for both passives and responses, and for the responses set of steps you need to jump back up to the passives set if any passives are initiated....