While it has already been established on these boards that if a navigator gets killed in the course of duty, a navigator deputy in the ships navigator spire/cupola takes over the navigation in the warp, I feel that the character class’s place as part of a ‘explorator’ team has not been fully fleshed out. Lots of background as to why they are important in their role as a navigator less as a explorator. It’s causing a bit of a problem in our round robin GM’ing…as when its the new GM's turn to explain the navigators involvement we kinda come unstuck when trying to come up with a valid reason why the navigator would leave his dome/spire aboard the ship…and its getting a but silly because theres only so many times the navigator can say “I try and not get killed but I think you’re going to need my help”

I mean why would he/she put themselves in harms way? The best explanation I can come up with is that he is not THE navigator, rather one of the younger members out to give his assistance of rare skills to the rogue trader ‘in the field’ as it were.

What is everyone else doing…what rationale is everyone else using for the ships living breathing navigation component putting himself in harms way?

He likes the adventuring and his contract with the RT means that they aren't allowed to leave him behind if he wants to come along, unless he will be a major liability.

Lord-Captain

Anybody who stays locked in the safety of the navigator's sanctum is dead

If I die, it won't be from sitting

It will be from fighting to carve something of value out of the Expanse!

Some navigators can get a thrill

in their sanctum just sitting still.

That's okay for some navigators

who don't know they're alive!

Some navigators can thrive and bloom

wired into the enginarium room.

That's perfect for some navigators

who wanna live to be five-hundred and five.

But I at least gotta try

when I think of all the sights out in the Expanse

and all the places I wanna to claim,

and all the routes I wanna be the first to chart!

Come on, Lord-Captain, what do you say?

Some navigators can be content

playing regicide and paying rent.

That's peachy for some navigators

for some dull navigators to be,

but some navigators ain't me!

Firstly apologies for the duplicare posting.

So it seems to come down to two issues:

Navigators that hang about Rogue Traders are so narcissitic and thrill seeking that unlike their boring merchant/navy peers they just can't bear to be couped up in the navigator dome all the time

and/or

Its a feudal society and he is expected to lead from the front or at least be at his lord captains side when the frak hits the fan.

Captain Harlock said:

I wasn't intending to say that all navigators on a RT ship were narcissistic, just the PC ones. Though considering how badly mutated they get, I wouldn't be surprised to find a large portion of them trying to experience life off the ship as much as they can before their mutation forces them to be locked up. The flavour text for the Navigator class (pg 60) does mention that RT ships attract Navigators with an almost nihilistic attitude.

Looking at the feudal society theory, I can see one problem with it: Navigators are mutants, and the Imperium doesn't like mutants. While their ability to navigate the warp means they won't be purged*, it doesn't make people like being around them.

*Most of the time.

Bilateralrope said:

They are a barely tolarated resource, though unlike psykers they kind of have a lot more clout in that many of the houses are stupendously rich, and they are less likely to go all daemon on you if they misuse their powers. Its clear from the fluffof the magesterial houses that the know how to hob nob with the great and the good.

However the rogue trader factor changes all that. Somehow I think a navigator hanging round a rogue trader will look positevly commonplace after this summer when every second throne luvvin explorator will have a Ork freebooter as part of his retinue

Bilateralrope said:

If its my navigator, the general consensus is "YES" because its the product of something unholy and unwholesome, but unfortunately a replacement is not forthcoming so they just sort of put up with it... and hope it doesn't get upset and start pulling people's arms out of their sockets for fun and amusement.

I welcome our new xenos crewmates as well. For they are far more smelly, emminently burnable and hateable than myself.

Captain Harlock said:

This is a very good question, and it's clear that FFG themselves considered this point. In Lure of the Expanse, the Navigator is crucial for decoding many of the clues to the location of the Dread Pearl, a Mcguffin/plot device apparently designed to get the Navigator out of his sanctum!

I think it IS worth GM's using their imagination to come up with reasons why the Navigator has chosen to leave his sanctum on a case by case basis, and perhaps they should even encourage Navigator players to do the same. Here's a few thoughts:-

- The Navigator has a powerful financial interest in the making sure that the endeavour is acheived. Perhaps he is a true business partner to the Rogue Trader, they have an adversarial relationship and don't trust each other, so the Navigator shadows his every move to ensure that Rogue Trader doesn't steal everything for himself.

-The Navigator has some dark hidden secret that has led him to follow the Rogue Trader's mission. Perhaps he is hunting a family member fallen to chaos in order to wipe the stain of this disgrace from his own dynasty's history, and is using his powers to track him across the Expanse. Perhaps he is an Inquisitorial agent.

-The Navigator is suicidal

-The Navigator is the Rogue Trader's best friend, and he doggedly sticks to him out of loyalty.

-The Navigator regards himself as diplomatic and cunning, able to smooth over ruffled feathers likely to be caused by the Rogue Trader's bombastic nature.

-The Navigator is a hobbyist, a devotee of "natural Philosophy", xenoarchaology, Pre-Imperial History etc etc. He constantly looks for excuses to visit new worlds to slake his thist for knowledge. Think Stephen Maturin in the Aubrey/Maturin Novels. (This is a variant on "thrill seeking," of course.)

-The Rogue Trader FORCES the Navigator to accompany him every time, and the Navigator is terrified. Perhaps the RT hates Navigators generally, or this one in particular. Perhaps the RT is eccentric, and believes that having a Navigator in his retinue enhances his status as a great spacefarer. Perhaps the RT wants some outsider to chronicle his story, and for unknown reasons has chosen the Navigator. (a la Gotrek & Felix from Warhammer.) Perhaps the RT trusts the Navigator's judgement, and wants him around. Perhaps the RT is from a primitive world and regards the Navigator with awe, one who can guide him across the expanse and he refuses to let him out of his sight.

Just a few thoughts!

Depending on the rogue trader's relations with both the navigator and his crew, taking the navigator with him can also be viewed as a relatviely effective deterent agasint muntiny : without the navigator, the ship won't leave while he's dirstside and let him stranded on some remote dirtball.

Lightbringer: Superb! Clearly you are a man of much psycological insight. I can see at least one of those reasonings being used in our group now,

Bilateralrope: Well done. I actually hadnt thought of that...Clearly you game around a dynasty which is very suspicious!

Im assuming Lightbringer is a man. Apologies for my oversight!

No apologies necessary, Captain!

Actually, the same things all apply to the Astropath as well. There's no obvious reason why you'd need an astropath planetside as part of an "away team," as one would assume that if you really needed to send a message to another system, you can just pass it on to him back at the ship via planet to orbit radio... So you'd need to get into similar explanations as to why he was coming with you. Any of the reasons set out above for Navigators could work as well for Astropaths too.

Sadly my long was reply was locked in the other thread.

Anyway, to those who are talking about them being mutants and despised...that is true, but you are also kind of off.

They are tolerated and distrusted, but at the same time they are incredably influential and relied upon. They are often depicted as having better accomadations than the captain on the ship. Their houses can exert massive influence, able to bully around everyone from Rogue Traders to the Imperial Navy. They are mutants, but they are manufactured mutants, and important ones.

You can compare them to Merlin the wizard, who is often described as being mistrusted by most of Arthurs court. In a Christain Kingdom that despised magic, he was a valuable and powerful advisor, only barely under the kings control, hated by the church, and mistrusted by the court. At the same time he was one of the most respected and powerful men in the kingdom, able to advise the King. When push came to shove he could even go against him.

You can be hated and mistrusted and still have a feudal position, and lots of power and respect ,especially if you specialize in an area that most people don't understand and are afraid of.

TechPriests are in much teh same position.

riplikash said:

There is one important difference between Tech Priests and Navigators: Navigators can do their job if they are confined to their rooms most of the time, where they only have to be seen by their servants. Tech Priests have to work on the machinery in question, meaning they need to move among regular humans a lot more. So the Tech Priests would have a bit more acceptance because they are seen more often.

Curious...Ive been trying to track down in my personal Librarium Citadel Journal 18, which amongst other things had an article for using Navigators in the 40k game. (boy was that a long time ago...I had a wood elf army at the time)

I seem to remember that the author Warwick Kindrade, did mention reasons for them being involved on the battlefield of all places, as well as some nice conversion ideas involving necromunda minatures and green stuff, as well as fleshing out the background and some of the majour houses. I may be wrong but I think thatt many of the ideas were transposed over into FFG rogue trader, especially some of the navigator powers the gained as a result of that article.

Does anyone have this hallowed tome? I cant seem to find it any more in my personal collection. Infact I suspect it met its same fate as my first ever white dwarf (144)

It will be intresting just for the sake of seeing which ideas were dropped if nothing else...

Bilateralrope said:

More acceptance yes, but I was more pointing to the fact that they are both examples of mystical advisors who are mistrusted and relied on, powerful mystical figures who are both respected and feared. Tech-Priests are more common and accepted, but an individual tech-priest is also less feared/respected than a navigator.

There are also several fluff bits (a couple of the Ciaphas Cain books have good examples) of navigators being fairly active in their roles as advisors. And those are just regular navigators. RT ships attract a certain kind of individual. Explorators instead of regular tech-priests, missionaries instead of priests, arch-militants instead of solders, senchals instead of accountants; explorers, adventurers, thrillseekers, swashbucklers, and vagabonds. And there is an expectation there.

Basically, for me, all of this comes together to mean that it is both understandable, and perhaps even expected, for the Navigator to go out, despite the risk. If they wanted to be couped up safely on a ship they would have joined a more traditional crew, and may make it a contingency of their employment. Their social system gives encouragement, and the situations RT find themselves in provide excuse.

All that being said, there is still good reason for a navigator to say behind, and on many ships they likely do. Many senchals probably do too, and explorators, and most voidsmasters, etc. But as to the question, how can they leave the ship, I think there is ample justification. RT characters are exceptional, adventurous, and driven people, and that includes those who accept positions as Navigators on their ships. There is ample excuse for them toget involved in the groups adventures.

Imagine being a sailor who has travelled all around the world to places that no man has visited, seen sights never been seen, discovered new worlds and lost civilizations. Cool eh? Too bad you were stuck on the boat all the time.

A member of the Navis Nobilite could insist on being part of the landing party. Smart Rogue Traders know it's best to keep their Navigator happy. It's not too great a risk if you have a secondary Navigator on the ship and Navigators are perceptive people.

I'm not sure where people come up with the idea that navigators are always cloistered away on whatever ship they serve. They're as much an explorer as any other key member of the crew. That, and they only need to be in their "dome" or "sanctum" when actually directing the ship through warp travel.

Gabriella Belisarius never locked herself away when the fecund matter struck the oscillating wind machine; and she's probably one of the most well developed Navigators in the novels, being present in books 4-6 of the Space Wolves series.

The more common Astropaths; not Ascendants, tend to cloister away in shielded suites until needed due to their sensitivity to others thoughts. But then, I've only really seen that description in one of the novels. It might be that common at all.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Brother Praetus said:

While I have to admit at never reading william king's series I can think of at least one episode. In the novel Relentless, tha navigator doesnt even bother to meet the new captainwhen he first takes over the ship. And at the end of the novel its the only time he ever bothers to address the naval officer after a boarding assault by dark eldar, from behind a bulkhead sayimg something like "better luck next time" adding to a feeeling that a navis dome aboard a ships is like some sacrosanct area which the captain cannot interfere wit a world apart as such.

The same was done in some other william King novel Farseer . In it the Rigue Trader Janus Darke and his best friend Navigator Simon Bellirarius (same family?) help eldar in a venture deep into the eye of terror. As one of the best rogue trader novels it becomes clear that while simon is a important part of the dynasty, he does not join the landing party but takes command of the Star of Vernan ship againts a Chaos ship in orbit.

So there are at least two fluffs where the navigator off the top of my head, doesn't get stuck in the thick of it. Plus the fluff encourages a sense of a breed apart from humanity

I think that the only route is to describe the navigator as something else. As some commentator mentioned briefly:

Mundane Superlative Why

Captain Rogue Trader Because he has written warrant giving him carte blache to do waht he likes

Astropath Astroptha Ascendant Loves being on the fringes of the astronomicon. To be Waaaay out there

Factor/Accountant Seneshal Doesnt just balance the books....he balances the odds, with cloak and dagger if he has to

Soldier/Body guard Arch Militant Not just a fighter...this guy could slap about a genesteler for fun

Priest Missionary Doesnt just preach it...he brings it to the heathens weather they llike it or not

And the we come to:

Navigator ........................... ................................................................................................................................................

I think the question is how is a navigator in a rogue trader entourage different/better from a normal one,what makes him risk his neck as opposed to the others who skulk in their plush chambers...

Captain Harlock said:

Personality. Ultimately it's one's personality, and possibly traditions and expectations of one's family. I could see age playing a factor as well; a younger navigator being much more prone to adventurous whimsy then an older, more "established" one.

As to those Space Wolf novels, book 4; Wolf Blade, was William King. Books 5 and 6; Sons of Fenris and Wolf's Honour, were written by Lee Lightner. I enjoyed both writers styles quite a bit. I'm still working my way through much of the other 40K titles, even the books and authors so many seem to dislike and that I have developed my own grudges against.

I have read to date:

• The Eisenhorn Trilogy
• The Ravenor Trilogy
• Gaunt's Ghosts; First and Second Omnibuses
• The Space Wolves series
• The Souldrinkers series
• The Blood Ravens Omnibus; lack continuity with the Dawn of War game and expansions
• The Inquisition War series

I've enjoyed most of what I've read, and look forward to getting around to the other story lines I've yet to read.

-=Brother Praetus=-

If one follows the Origin Path, Pride makes for a rather powerful motive as to why your Navigator would be down on the surface trying to 'prove' his worth in any way he can. Prestige is a touch more tricky, but I could imagine a secretive Navigator wanting to be on the surface of a never-before-seen planet on the lookout for something to use to his benefit. A small Eldar statue that could be pocketed and traded to someone later in exchange for secrets, an overheard conversation between the Rogue Trader and his Arch-Militant bodyguard about potentially-exploitable morale issues on the lower decks...

Failing that, I had a discussion with one of my players about the use of a servitor or robot hooked up to a comms array that could be used for telepresence work. Ruled that time lag would make him always go last in initiative and some other caveats about skill use and such, but it could have worked for a more craven Navigator unwilling to risk himself in the wild.

Interesting idea! The Navigator keeps an eye (or three) on the activities of the Rogue Trader and reports them to his own House. His own House will certainly be very interested with the RT's new discoveries.

the navigator i have in my current campaing have grown through mutation and the best gear available into a killing combat machine... imagine this....

a renegade navigator with the tides of time and space at master level enough lucky mutations to give him unnatural str, toughness, agility, wings a fear rating and regeneration then just give him power armour, subskin armour, sythetic muscle grafts and a power fist and you have a character acting 1st everytime thanks to his navi powers and hits with a str of over 100 double for the power fist .... why would he stay on board the ship???? if you want ill put up his stat line too.

This exact combination of mutations sounds... improbable.

near impossible but the dice gods hate me plus thankfully i only need to find 9 more corruption point before the character is unplayable and hits the magic 100 so not all bad