Hope we all can use this new spot to continue both of these great discussions.

Deffinitely need a second ed. The system is sound just a lot of glitches.

Probably just my age but I now tend to view any rpg as a start point / source book to customise as I want it

Glitches?

Do you mean errata? Because the system works fine, at least for me and my players.

I would like to see a second edition, but just with the errors pointed in the errata solved.

It's perfectly good enough for me and my players. 2nd Edition? You have to be kidding! Aren't we always moaning about cynical games companies cashing in as it is?

Yeah, I haven't had any problems with the game that weren't addressed in the two erratas and the revised book.

Other than disliking the WFRP core system, thus Dark Heresy, I don't see an inherent reason for a "second edition" to be anything other than another print run that includes all of the errata and rules clarifications. For those that like the limited approach to the 40k universe that Dark Heresy represents, it seems to work.

For the game to be more palatable to me, it would have to be "40k RPG," not Dark Heresy RPG. That is most certainly not going to happen. It will, though, be rather interesting to see what FFG do with Rogue Trader. Will it share the same limited scope that Dark Heresy has, or will it, as one might imagine, have to significantly address the broader issues of the game universe? Society, trade, warp travel, starships, aliens, etc.?

Kage

This was suppose to be a thread continuing one from the original forums before the chang over. Not necessarily that the game needs a second edition but more of a revised edition. But if it were to be changed, what would you want to see changed?

On the last forum people posted things such as more stream lined careers, less talents for 2 weapon use, altered noble origin (to reflect what kind of world hte noble is from), expanded background, and so forth.

It is not meant to say the game doesnt work or is bad, I like the game and run it as often as possible, including while Im on leave visiting home. I also like everything overall about the game.

Again it is to be a discussion on what you would like to see changed, cleared up and modified or dropped all together. Although I do agree with Kage2020, Od rather have a streamlined "this is 40K" core rule book and see things like Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch, Underhive and other "settings/campaigns" as sourcebooks.

Here's experimenting with the quotation system now that people are getting into the more complex discussions.

Peacekeeper_b said:

To be fair, the changes that I would make are primarily "more background." It needs it in buckets. Less allusions to the medieval period as a means of filling in the blanks and putting people on familiar territory and more information.

If it were a comment on the rules, my personal bias against level- and class-based systems make it difficult to make useful comments. I would, however, have preferred to see rules that evoked the background. Psykers, for example, feel like wizards. This might be addressed in Disciples of the Dark Gods, but there should be something more in the core rules. Further, the disconnect between what we understood about psykers from the original publications in WD139/140 days is more frustrating than not. Grade 1 through 6? How does that relate to Alpha, Beta, etc., psykers, or even Primary and Secondary ones?

Essentially there needs to be far more information - for me - that allows people to play in the 40k universe. Is that going to happen? Nope. Chances are we are going to have to wait for Rogue Trader, and evne then there is some question on just what additional information that it is going to give us or whether it is going to be evocative of Age of Sail "adventuring" on the high Sea of Souls...

Peacekeeper_b said:

That last, as above, is certainly something that I could agree with.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Certainly. It might also clear up the "mess" about how things work in the Imperium.

Apologies, though, for misinterperting the core intent of the thread. I usually avoid the rules-based questions because of the aforementioned bias.

Kage

Edit: Well, the quotation system works for one person, but one wonders how it is going to apply to multiple discussants.

Though it doesn't realy need a 2nd edition it does need a 1.5 edition where all the eratta and extra's are included.

Though I can manage perfectly with the old edition...

I must throw my hat in with those who need more background. Something like the "city of chaos" sourcebook for WFRP, "Arkham" for CoCthulhu and "Night City" for Cyberpunk. I for one relish these tools as a GM and could really use a properly detailed Scintilla, for example.

I suppose that the most that I want to see happen is a reprint with the errata sorted out, and then loads more source material. It's all well and good falling back on the whole "use your imagination" excuse but without enough cohesive setting it is difficult for players to feel properly immersed in a functioning universe.

Bad Birch said:

Aye, expansions of the setting rather than the hand-waved allusion to the Middle Ages.

I've only reall seen Night City of the ones that you mentioned, but even something like Warhammer City: Middenheim would be a welcome resource. Informative, and even has the standard dodge of only talking about one city/world/system and maintaining the stance that we don't want to say anything definitive ala GW.

Bad Birch said:

Indeedy. Amusingly when the thread on "What would you like to see from us" came up, with the ultimate response being an adventure/scenario, I really wanted to see a treatise on the Inquisition or, even better, the Imperium itself. Not gonna happen, though.

Kage

Another point is that with this addition having only, what, two real supplements, a new edition is a bit quick I think...

a book which includes everything would be good, we now play with the rulebook and countless printouts. also the spelling/grammar sorted out (it just annoys me). I agree some background books for planets would be good - a great example is the Mort book for SLA Industries.

Actually the most annoying thing is the whole called shot system. As specialised gunslinging scum, I find it almost pointless shooting people in the head, even though you would think it is most effective. (house rule - no toughness bonus deduction from the damage),

Personally I think a 2nd edition is a terrible idea. The game is really just getting started, throwing out a full fledged second edition that invalidates any of the current material I think would be a death sentence. A reprinting with the included errata, maybe incorporating some of the downloadable material (and the vehicle rules) is probably a good idea, however.

IMHO i don t think that a 2nd edition would be prudent, especially with the impending release of Rogue Trader which will expand the 40K Rpg world considerably. I ll concur with current sediment for a rules compendium reprinting of sorts although several of us have already taken the initiative of doing so (thanks Redeucer for the compiled advancement tables!!). In the same vein of Da Boss's previous post, most gms will probably customize the game to their liking hence the Houserule subforum. Personally, I would like some more background info and general fluff. I d gladly pay for some DH specific source books as opposed to using old 40K miniature books to connect the dots. The Calixis Sector was chosen to be the setting for a reason: it is relatively unknown. The fluff in this sector isn t going to drastically change the continuity of the other 40K settings (unless there is a squat refugee homeworld somewhere in Calaxis guarded by Rainbow Warrior Space Marines!) Lets not for get with Black Industries dropping the whole DH line, FFG has done an admirable job of keeping the game afloat.

whisperer in the vault said:

Don't forget the other reason: it is fairly unimportant. No galaxy changing potential, just a relative backwater where "you will not be missed" and must "know your place!"

whisperer in the vault said:

To be fair, I don't see threads such as this as a criticism of FFG, but rather people who like (and those who don't like) the system dropping by with some suggestions on how they think that the product could be improved.

Kage

Perhaps the term 2nd edition is a bit drastic, though many games made a 2nd edition that remained completely compatible with first edition books. THere are like 7 editions of Call of Cthulhu, all are very very very compatible. A new edition doesnt have to be radically changed, despite the D&D trend. The Rifts 2nd Ediiton was 90% compatible with original material and so forth (sorry I used rifts). Heck even AD&D 1E and AD&D 2E were compatible.

Perhaps the Revised Edition or Master Edition or Peacekeeper_B Edition would be a better term for what i looking for.

What I list is the following.

1. More background, including ideas and information to make the players more involved in a galactic scale if need be.

2. Compile the errata, including Vehicle Apocrypha and other free PDFs (heck, through Shattered Hope in as the first 16 pages for a quick "how to play" and starting adventure)

3. Compile all careers and origins in one book.

4. Fix typos and errors.

5. Give role play information for the various character types, especially Clerics, Tech Priests and Psykers.

6. (from last list) more art to show as well as describe the environment and setting.

agreed on both counts. Calixis sector's relative "unimportance" has more advantages than disadvantages imho. I didn t take the thread as critizism towards FFG (although I firmly believe that creative critizism is a good thing), just highlighting the fact that with a change in companies, some lag time was bound to occur with the publications of supplements as well as any new edition musings. but if i had to level some critizism i d go with the prices of models and the length of time it takes to get supplements. I think i waited for year and a half or so for the Anima rpg to finally come out, its like waiting for Mark Smylie to come out with Artesia novels!

whisperer in the vault said:

I think on this we're going to have to agree to disagree. The unimportance and the aforementioned themes are, for me, some of the greater weaknesses of the Dark Heresy setting. While it wondered all over the place, one of the topics on Dark Reign was interesting in the differentiation between "heroic" and "epic" styles of play and how this might apply, or not, to Dark Heresy. Since I prefer the latter style—I love it when players find out more about the "truths" of the universe and have an impact—this unimportant backwater approach isn't really my gig.>

Ah well, different strokes and all that.

Kage

I agree whole heartedly with Peacekeeper_b with his above post. Personally, i d like to see more planet/hive specific backgrounds in the vein of the Imperial Navy alternate origin for void borns, the hive variants like that of Volg, etc. I ve often wondered what the actual protocol was withCult Mechanicus tech. I can t fathom the Priesthood of Mars would allow non-cult members or even non-Skitaarii to use weapons such as the Vanaheim or the D'Laku Hellgun. Why wouldn t an Inquisitor or any other higher ranking member of society, such as nobles, just commandeer equipment or weapons from Imperial citizens? Why should some scum derelict possess a bolter, often described as the "sword of the emperor" when an inqusitor could utilize it in his holy duties. Maybe I m asking to much, but i d like the fluff to answer little questions such as these. If i could also be so bold as to be impertinent, i would like the Commissars to be included as a career path as well. There is an excellent Commissar path at Unearthed Apocrypha that could serve as the basis (my apologies, insomia prevents me from remembering who was the author, throne bless you and forgive my omission)

Kage

I see your point. My current campain actually blends two other rpgs into the DH universe, Call of Cthulu and the Whispering Vault (do i get bonus points for the choice of avatar and screen name?) My whole creeping corruption that came out of no where to engulf the Empire fits the Calixis isolated location. I ve often wondered if there will be supplements for other sectors and especially higher level play as an inquisitor.

To each his own, hopefully the will release something that fits both of our tastes...

First, I would have to second, third, fourth, and so on, Peacekeeper_b's desire for #6, more art depicting life in the Imperium! We know what it's like to fight in the Imperium and we have a real good idea about what an Imperial Guardsmen looks like but if it doesn't involve a big man with a bigger gun, it's a bit lacking in the art (except for the fem fatals). I'll be eventually getting around to working up some illustrations for some civilian vehicles in and around Scintilla for my group (including the Scarab since that bugger comes up a lot)as all we have to go on so far is figher-jet's and tanks. Of course, I imagine this is partially due to the fact that, by the looks of the books BI put out, over half the art was cut/paste jobs from previous GW publications.

As for the unimportance of the Calaxious sector, I also think it's a good thing. Primaraly, it frees FFG now to do what ever they **** well feel like doing with it and detailing it how they see fit without it conflicting with something in some GW publication. This seems to be what a lot of folks mentioned an RPG needed to do. If it were based in or dealt with something that any part of GW ever messed with, eventually there would be background conflict and fanboys all up in arms that things aren't matching up, declaring they'll by no more books, yada yada yada. By staging the game in an "unimportant backwater" it's easy to say, well, X retconed event just didn't effect Calaxius sector, it's the backwater after all. Or, as Ross has started doing, referring to specific things with the qualifier "In the Calaxious Sector" which helps free the game from any chains imposed upon it by the ever evolving contradictory GW "cannon."

Now, just because it's "unimportant" dose not mean that only unimportant events happen there. After all, something is unimportant until something happens to make it important. Hell's bells, the Emperor could be reborn on Spectoris, the means to close the Eye of Terror could be hidden on Reshia, or the all but unknown (and would have actually been successful) Black Crusade 12.5 could have actually marched into the Calaxious Sector only to be brought down in a spectacular battle that no one knows about in which Abadon was slain and replaced with a deep cover Inquisitor reformed to take Abadons place and destroy the ranks of Chose from the inside (or at least cause as much damage with ineffectual Crusades as possible). just because something is deemed "unimportant" by most everyone doesn't mean that unimportant things can't and don't happen there -it ust means that FFG is free to take the game line where it needs to go ;-)

Peacekeeper_b said:

What would you cut to fit this stuff in?

Luddite said:

Cut? Why cut it, I really want a 1200 page book the current one is far too flimsy for my liking

In all serious though. I (and I know I appear to be one of a few) really like DH the way it is. I like the idea of playing expendable inquisitorial acolytes. I like the Calxis "backwater" as mentioned earlier it gives FFG free reign on what they would like to do, but more importantly it gives you the GM's and players the freedom to make it your own little place in the Imperium. If it was set elsewhere, say Ultramar you would be beset by players saying, you can't do that or are but the Tyranids ate that moon we're about to look at or it wouldn't feel "real", the players actions would have less meaning as they would know that this is just a made up story in the 40k universe. Whereas, playing in the Calixis sector gives my plays a sense of accomplishment that they really did save the Malfian Sub sector as there is no codex/novel/white dwarf acticle to say otherwise!

I could be wrong but I think the major problem that many people have with DH (they might not realise it though ) is that everyone was soooo excited about the idea of a 40k rpg. Everyone was conjuring up the image of the rpg they were waiting for. "I really want X!" "I hope it has rules for Y!" "SPEEESHH MAHREEENS!!! WOOOOO!!" They kept waiting and waiting and got more and more excited about what they hoped it would be that when the final (awesome) product was out they could only focus on what it wasn't, that this was "broken", "it doesn't fit into the way I saw it working" "Bolters? WTF!" "It doesn't have X" "What!? No rules for Y!!? How dare they!?" "NO SPEEESH MAHREENS!? NOOOOO!!"

But don't get me wrong I would really like a reprint that includes the latest errata (and anything that was possibly missed) I just don't think it needs the overhaul that others believe it does. I could be wrong, but it seems to be working fine for our games.