Hey guys,

I'm playing as Mad Carthos and just got the magic Rune Word of Vaal.

The Word of Vaal states "Attacks with the Word of Vaal affect all enemy figures within 3 spaces of your hero and only miss on a miss result."

So here's my question, does this card only damage those within the 3 spaces or can my hero still target enemies outside of this space as long as he gets the range?

You can attack normally outside your 3 spaces, but all enemies within 3 spaces of you are also hurt (as a bonus on top of your attack)

No, you cannot attack outside the range of three spaces. The attack affects only enemies within that range.

Otherwise the statement on the card (can only miss with a miss result) would give you inifinite range, since you could not miss due to lack of range.

Edit: Missed the second thread...

I don't understand your term of 'infinite range' in this matter. Range is still calculated as per normal, using the dice results thrown. And on top of that, all attacks affect nearby enemies within 3 spaces of the attacker as well.

My key support here that it allows an attack outside the 3 spaces is that:

-Nowhere did it state that you MUST only attack within 3 spaces.

-Nowhere did it state that you CANNOT attack outside 3 spaces.

-When things are not stated, you always follow the normal rules. In this case, it is using a weapon to attack. Which then means you attack NORMALLY, using your dice thrown to get the range you want, and then the weapon has a bonus feature of: damaging enemies within 3 spaces with all attacks.

The card says the attack only misses with a "miss" result (which means a rolled X).

How would an attack on targetted range 6, but rolled range only 4 be treated? Basic rules say it becomes a miss result if the rolled range is not sufficient. The card says it cannot miss due to that. > Dungeon explodes due to illogical overload.

I'm with Parathion on this one. Word of Vaal is from the base game, and the base game is from an era when FFG's rules were notoriously poorly worded (they've only just started to show significant improvement in that last year or so.) Reading the card, it seems to me fairly obvious that the intent is to replace the normal target space mechanic with a static radius of range 3.

Firstly, there's the infinite range issue which Parathion mentions, which I cannot see a counter to if you allow a standard target space attack with this rune. Declare a target space at any range you like, since the attack only misses on an X you don't have to worry about actually rolling sufficient range.

Secondly there's Corbon's point about the Breath attack in the other thread, which looks like it makes sense on the surface (I should probably go back and read through the entire breath attack rules before I commit too much on this one though.)

Thirdly there's the fact that Word of Vaal ignores Line of Sight like a breath weapon, according to the FAQ. Sure, that probably only means within the 3 space radius, but try explaining that to a hero player who just realised he can hit **** 20 spaces away if he's allowed to nominate a regular target space.

Finally, on a thematic note (and I realize this is shaky territory for any Descent argument) the rune is called "Word of Vaal," which implies to me that the idea is you're reading some magic word that literally causes pain to all enemies who hear it. It just doesn't make sense to me that it affects everyone within a certain range, but you can still pick one person at a further distance who also suffers. I suppose it's magic, after all, so it can really do anything it wants, but that just seems silly to me.

In my mind the intention of the rune is clear, even if the wording on the card is sorely ambiguous.

Parathion said:

There is no illogical overload.

"Attacks with the Word of Vaal affect all enemy figures within 3 spaces of your hero and only miss on a miss result."

Example 1:

You still attack normally. If you aim 6 range away, but rolled a 4 range, you have fallen short of your target. Your target takes no damage.

The bonus of affecting all enemies within 3 spaces STILL works though, since you did not roll an X.

Example 2:

You attack normally. Your target is 4 range away and you rolled a 5 range. You hit the target, as well as all enemies within 3 spaces of you.

Example 3:

You attack normally at a target 5 range away, but u rolled an X. Game over, no more damage, not even to those within 3 spaces of you.

PS: Where is the illogical overload?

Look at the basic rules: An attack with insufficient range becomes a miss (explicitly stated). It doesn´t "fall short" or "doesn´t affect the target" or anything similar, it becomes a straight-out miss. Your attack at range 6 would thus become a miss according to the basic rules, yet the card says you can´t miss without an X.

If you fail to see the illogic overload in that, I´m afraid a further discussion won´t make a lot of sense.

It becomes illogical IF you take the words as meant for the normal attack, which they are not. They are meant for the bonus attack (the one that affects all enemies within 3 spaces)

Basically you will SURELY hit all enemies within 3 spaces, UNLESS you rolled an X on your normal attack. That is what the card is saying.

But as for the normal attack, you still take it the way it is - a normal attack. You can still fall short of your target if your range is not far enough. But as long as your result does not show an X, all enemies within 3 spaces of u WILL take damage, even if the normal attack does not hit its target.

So yes, there is really no 'illogical overload' here. The words 'only miss on a miss result (X)' were meant for the bonus attack of 3 spaces, not the normal attack. They are two very separate attacks, but only that they share the same damage value (from the same roll) and the bonus attack only misses if you get an X.

I have already tried my very best to explain to you. If you still fail to see the point, then like what you said, I'm afraid we will make no further progress by any discussions. I apologize for my failure in communicating my meaning to you. Now, bring out your traps and boulders. Let's compete mano-a-mano and see who's balls... boulders are larger. The stronger Overlord shall be correct.

P.S: I forgot to mention that there are many parts of Descent that state: Only miss on an X result. This means that your attack will surely hit even if its range is not enough. Cannot remember any particular one though. (basically its a cooler way of saying u will surely hit your target as long as u hav LoS to it, or in another phrase: your range is always 9.) I think a Gold ranged weapon? Cant rem...

All further discussion is moot, since you obviously already have decided that the weapon works that way, whereas everyone else has the opposite opinion.

Your bonus effect is completely made up out of thin air.

Wanderer999, are you saying that the Word of Vaal makes 2 attacks? If its all one attack, then it either all misses or all hits, that's how Descent works. If it's two attacks, then it requires two attack rolls, since that's also how Descent works.

James McMurray said:

I concur. The rules for Dodge and other re-roll effects make it clear that one roll result is applied to all figures of a given attack. It is not allowed for one single attack to hit some figures and miss others within its affected spaces.

Steve-O said:

Except for Stealth, but that rule is explicitly spelled out.

I was in this particular game that brought up the question.

I wish that there was a way to get some sort of official answer on it, because until then there's no solid way to know whose right.

My argument for not desiring a ranged attack with Word of Vaal involves the way the card is worded. I would assume that if you got to perform your normal ranged attack AND got an aoe around yourself that the card would say "Attacks with the Word of Vaal ALSO affect all enemy figures within 3 spaces of your hero" or something more clear.

The way it's worded on the card makes it sound to me like, even if you targeted, say, a beastman 5 spaces away, that attack would only affect all enemy figures within 3 spaces of your hero, so you're basically still just attacking enemies in a 3-space burst around yourself.

The problems with infinite range that you bring up also would seem to apply, since there's no text on the card differentiating the described attack from any theoretical normal ranged magic attack you would use, thus meaning that you could target a monster 12 squares away and not even need to count range to make sure that the attack hits.

For those reasons, and because the card seems too powerful if it's 2 attacks, my .02 is that Word of Vaal turns your attack into a burst 3 spaces around yourself.

Antistone said:

You stopped too soon.

"attacks... affect all (enemy) figures... (sic) in spaces defined by X..."
vs
"attacks... (sic) affect spaces (which means all figures in those spaces)... (sic) in spaces defined by X..."

Ok, I misworded my point. the wording is not 'pretty much exactly the same". The meaning of the wording, is pretty much exactly the same. Both instruct that the attack affects certain spaces and defines those spaces. Well, except for the fact that Word of Val affects figures, not spaces, but defines which figures are affected are defined by counting spaces (that is what range does). The only real difference between the two is that WoV only affects enemy figures.

It doesn't really need an official wording.
There is one person who thinks differently from all the rest. That doesn't make him wrong. OTOH, nothing personal (and I'll be pleased to catch up if we run into each other at PI store), but Wanderer99 is a newish player and hasn't shown a gift for analysis in previous posts. The only thing going for his position at the moment is that Antistone, who is probably the acknowledged analysis master in this forum, thinks the wording isn't definitive even though he feels that Wanderer99 is wrong.

Find a ruling that works for you and stick with it.

Purely RAW, Parathion does have a logical point up till the part where some of the attack hit and some missed However, I also agree that the poorly worded intent of the card was to only affect the figures within three spaces.

In my games, it affects enemies within 3 spaces of you, and that's it.

HooblaDGN said:

There is a link down at the bottom of the page called "Rules Questions" which you could use to submit this question to FFG staff. I've never made use of it myself so I don't know how long it might take to get a response.

Also, in my experience when everyone except one person is saying the same thing, they're usually on to something. That's not always true, but it's a good rule of thumb. Especially with the heavyweights like Corbon, Antistone and James are all saying the same thing.

I don't begrudge Wanderer his opinion, but IMHO it's pretty clearly not the way the card is intended to work. As long as everyone at his table is willing to play it that way, though, there's really no harm, no foul.

I'll also add my vote to the majority. And as I often disagree with Corbon & Antistone, occasionally just for the sake of discussion, take it for what it's worth; I really don't see this as a case with two sides.

Corbon said:
Regardless of what space you actually attempt to target, it still seems that the spaces affected by the attack are those defined by the card (ie all enemy figures within 3 spaces) and therefore not those 'normally' affected by the attack.

HooblaDGN said:
The way it's worded on the card makes it sound to me like, even if you targeted, say, a beastman 5 spaces away, that attack would only affect all enemy figures within 3 spaces of your hero

I would go even farther than that and say that you cannot even declare that you are targeting a beastman 5 spaces away. When you use Word of Vaal, your target is always a 7x7 square centered on the hero; you don't declare a space to attack. It's AOE, like blast / breath / bolt / etc., so the " declare which space " part of " Step 1: Declare Attack " does not work as normal.

Corbon said:
It doesn't say 'additionally'.
It just says that the attack affects these spaces.

+1

Wanderer999 said:
My key support here that it allows an attack outside the 3 spaces is that:
-Nowhere did it state that you MUST only attack within 3 spaces.
-Nowhere did it state that you CANNOT attack outside 3 spaces.
-When things are not stated, you always follow the normal rules. In this case, it is using a weapon to attack. Which then means you attack NORMALLY, using your dice thrown to get the range you want, and then the weapon has a bonus feature of: damaging enemies within 3 spaces with all attacks.

Word of Vaal specifically states which enemy figures (spaces) are affected. Therefore, there is no such thing as targeting a figure (or space), whether it's a figure within 3 spaces or outside of 3 spaces.

Steve-O said:
Reading the card, it seems to me fairly obvious that the intent is to replace the normal target space mechanic with a static radius of range 3.
...
In my mind the intention of the rune is clear, even if the wording on the card is sorely ambiguous.

+1

Cymbaline said:
Speaking of, the similarity to breath tends to make me think that WoV is an either-or ability, which is to say you can attack one creature like normal with range and all of that, or you can use the "template" of "within three spaces".

Blast and Breath are the only AOE abilities that have been FAQ'd to be optional, though. Bolt, for example, is not optional, and neither is Sweep. There's no reason to think the AOE of WoV should be optional.

Antistone said:
If a skill said "exhaust when making an attack; that attack has the Burn and Knockback abilities" you would probably interpret that as meaning that they have those abilities in addition to whatever abilities the attack would otherwise have; it's a bonus, not a definitional statement.

If a skill actually said that, it would mean the attack only has those abilities, and I'm not sure how it would interact with weapon abilities. I'd probably assume it's intended to mean they are additional abilities, but I would curse FFG's rules editing as I did so. Fortunately, all the skills and feats I've bothered double-checking say "gain [XXX ability]" or "+ Damage/Range/etc."

On a lighter note,
Corbon said:
Wanderer99 is a newish player

A newish player who hasn't earned his third nine yet?

Corbon said:

Noooooooo~~~~! I raised my white flag already! Stop attacking!! Ahhhhhh...

mahkra said:

Oops, I made a minor mistake here. I should have said Breath / Bolt / Sweep, because those three do not involve targeting an individual space. You do still declare a target space as normal with an attack that has Blast, but the Blast ability can then increase the AOE after dice are rolled.

mahkra said:

LOL! Just noticed that! Whee, so he wasn't referring to me