I was just reading the thresd discussing the Untouchable rules, and this thought occurred to me.

As untouchables are basically holes in the warp and cannot be affected by psychic powers/warp, what do people think about untouchables and daemonic pacts?

As far as I know untouchables are as prone to avarice, ambition and dark desires as anyone else. However, their nullification of warp powers would lead me to the conclusion that even if one did bargain with a daemon, he wouldn't be able to make pacts for any of the swiffy supernatural twists common such exchanges and instead would be limited to kind of quid pro quo service for service type stuff. (I do task A for you, you go kill Bob in accounting for me.)

After all it's kind of hard to sell you soul when you don't have one...

DocIII said:

I'd imagine this is one of the reasons that the Imperium consider Untouchables to be a "safe" weapon for use against the comparatively unstable witches, sorcerers and psykers.

Untouchables being incapable of the majority of daemonic pacts seems entirely appropriate, IMO. The Daemon, afterall, would be severely uncomfortable in the presence of a Pariah, so would be unlikely to stick around long enough to come to an agreement in the first place, particularly as most of the standard 'gifts' given by the Daemon (as well as the costs - Untouchables are immune to possession, warp-spawned powers of all kinds, and Corruption Points caused by failing a Fear Test when confronted by a warp entity) aren't applicable to an Untouchable.

Still, just because a being is greedy, dangerously ambitious and possessed of dark desires doesn't necessarily mean they're inevitably going to engage in a Daemonic Pact - it doesn't just require willingness, but opportunity (and the interest of an appropriate daemon), and beings who have entered into these kinds of agreements should be very rare in any case. So I hardly think an Untouchable is missing out on much, really... such things are hardly so commonplace that the corrupt-untouchable-on-the-street is going to feel left out...

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I don't disagree with any of these points. My point about avarice, etc. was that an untouchable would be as prone to the motives that lead to a daemonic pact as anyone else.

Based on the setting info, being an untouchable is even more rare than being a party to a daemonic pact. Then again, as in many RPGs (and works of fiction in general) we are often specifically looking at the story of extraordinarily rare/exceptional individuals. [Particularly in the realms of sci-fi and fantasy, in which unique "only-one-of-his-kind" protagonists are a dime a dozen.]

I just find the concept an interesting intellectual exercise as to just what is excluded/results from the interaction of such seemingly antithetical elements.

Related conceptually is the idea of chaos rituals as presented in DotDG. On the one hand, the warp-negative nature of an untouchable could lead to an interpretation that chaos rituals were something thay could not do. On the other hand, such rituals require neither psychic power, nor sorcery, so an argument could be made that even those with no connection to the might be able to pull it off. (This point may be addressed in the Untouchables text box in DotDG, my copy is not presently at a location where I can reference it easily and I don't recall if pacts and/or chaos rituals are specifically mentioned)

DocIII said:

I'd assert that (for my own purposes), because rituals do (as described in the main text for them) influence the barrier between the warp and realspace, the presence of an Untouchable is at the very least deleterious to the process - bare minimum, I'd apply the -20 penalty on psyker-associated tests from the Untouchable's aura to any and all tests made as part of a Chaos Ritual performed by the Untouchable or within his vicinity. And, because Daemonic Mastery tests are described as a psychic battle of wills, an Untouchable cannot even attempt them - he has no psychic presence (in the conventional sense) to exert in the correct manner, and his presence is more likely to anger a summoned Daemon than anything else.

This is my own musing on the matter, however, rather than anything borne out by the rules - the Untouchables sidebar says that they can't have a psy rating, use Psychic Powers, or gain the Sorcery, True Faith or similar talents. From a strictly literal perspective, there's nothing preventing them attempting a daemonic ritual, because rituals aren't bought as talents - they're an application of certain Forbidden Lore skills (namely Forbidden Lore (Daemonic)), which an Untouchable is allowed to know (indeed, it's probably safer for an Untouchable to know that kind of thing than for anyone else, simply because they're largely impervious to the influence of the daemonic or warp-spawned).

Not at all official, but I'm liable to run it such that most Daemons cannot even perceive Untouchables - a Daemons' vision is based on perturbations in the Immaterium just as our vision is based on light reflections. If the Untouchable is essentially "not there" then it's like trying to see a magic eye picture if you don't know the trick. Experienced daemons have probably learned to detect them by their absence, which is why you can have daemons fighting Culexus Assassins and Necron Pariahs on the tabletop. So, the Untouchable can ask to make a daemonic pact, but the odds are the daemon's not even going to hear the request.

It is my position that not all "Dark Pacts" are necessarily made with Daemonic / Warp entities.

There are older and darker things in the galaxy than man's philosophy can comprehend...

That said, being an Untouchable is already freaky rare - an Untouchable that has specifically arranged for some sort of Dark Pact? All but unique I would think... great villain idea though.

cappadocius said:

I've always played it similarly, but it's not that Untouchables are invisble to a daemon's sight. It's that while a daemon can see. Sight is not one of his primary senses. A daemon's primary senses are warp, empathic, and telepathic. Also many lesser daemons are very primal, and would likely ignore a null. (Normal human's have yummy emotions, and souls.) Smarter daemons would likely attack a null once they were aware of him as something abhorrent to their very world view.

As far as a null making a pact. It would be near unthinkable. Nulls are abominations in the eyes of daemon kind. A daemon would view them in almost the same manner as human's view daemons. Remember folks that the Pariah Gene was seeded into the human population by the Necrons. Why to produce a weapon to kill psykers, and daemons of course, and possibly to poison so to speak. (Daemon feed on emotions, and souls, but can't on the Untouchables.)

I think it's eminently possible for an Untouchable to end up working for 'the other side', although there’s probably very little reason to use them unless there regularly fighting pskers and daemons themselves.

As to Untouchables with pacts, I’d personally say no, Halo Devices and there ilk though, that’s a different matter.

Just thinking on from all this talk on Untouchables, and spit balling a few ideas, In the original background for the Culexus it talked about them as literally having no soul. Given the further revelations on the Pariah Gene this could be taken as an indication that in the 40k universe the presence of a soul has a Genetic rationale.

Given that all life in our Universe was created from seeds left by the Old Ones after there exhaustive war with the Necrons, its safe to assume that most animal life above a certain level of sophistication therefore has a soul, however mutations do occur and has already been seen with presence of the Pariah Gene, purposeful genetic manipulation by all manner of other Xeno species might lead to all sorts of soulless xeno abominations existing out there.

Of course there’s also the possibility that the Necrons didn’t extinguish all life in the galaxy, and that races predating the war and the Old Ones genetic tampering might have survived in the remotest regions of space. These races may never have had souls, and might never have seen the need to develop them.

I guess what I’m saying here is that there no reason to just limit Untouchables to Humanity, I for one am already trying to imagine what sort of nightmarish creature I could bury on some deserted moon.

Dalnor Surloc said:

This is just from what I remember and a cursory rescan/skimming of Xenos and Malleus but both of the Daemon Hosts could see Lizbeth, seemed to be able to hear her, were not frightened nor disgust nor did they seem to abhor her. They were also both confident in their ability to casue her physically harm, and although her presence inhibited their ability to use psychic powers directly against here and those near her they had no trouble entering her 'Null Zuone' and physically attacking individuals.

Also Gregor seemed able to on many occasions come into prolonged physically contact with Lizbeth without suffering any physically harm, or discomfort (meaning her touc didn't deal him or presumably DH any damage.) Personally I see no reason a Blank could not engage a Daemon or other Warp entiies in various deals. If they are completely immune to the powers and influence of the Warp SPawn they can still benifit from their assitence, knowledge, 'muscle' and might as both tools and allies so it's not really beyond the pall.

I think there is often a knee jerk respone and tendency to take everything in 40,000 to the extreme, which is in part, part of the setting however just as Marines Can be more than Killing Machines and Eldar more than Emo SPace ELves a null can be more than a walking Null Rod they are despite their 'soulessness' still human, and vunerable to all the psychological and emotional weaknesses of their race.

When Daemons encounter Jurgan (Cain novels) they tend to get a little confused and have difficulty percieiving him - IIRC it does not tend to cause them damage (he has his plasma gun for that) but rather confuses and discomfrts them (in the same way he has an effect on Tryanids like Genestealers and Psykers). It is interesting that the Cain novels also play up how very rare he is - Amberely seemingly keept his existance quiet from the rest of the Inquisition as an Ace in the hole...................

You could have quite a amusing session with the blank trying to contact the Daemons and them not perceiving / hearing him and getting irritated by no one being there. However doubtless they could find a way to communicate................

I have always thought that part of the 40K universe is that pretty much everyone is corruptable and the daemons could indeed offer blank material things - now whether for instance they could make a blank say likeable / peronable (which may be be waht he/she actually wants more as the Inquisition can probably supply the latter too) is open to question?

Possible - yes . It would make an intersting scenario as many players / characters would also think it is impossible.............

Wu Ming said:

Thing is, that's not what's being considered here. That's a different question entirely.

The subject up for discussion is can an Untouchable make a Daemonic Pact - that is, determining if he is capable (physically and metaphysically) of doing so. The matter of whether or not this hypothetical Untouchable wants to is a completely seperate matter.

I don't think anyone is denying a potential for corrupt, evil and generally unpleasant Untouchables - they are, afterall, human beings, with almost everything that entails - but an Untouchable engaging in any activity reliant on a normal or heightened psychic presence is doomed to failure from the start.

Yes, my point though is they can be corupt and thus could seek or make pacts with daemons. I pact needn't be something that grants sorerous powers, or even augments an individual in fact historically insofar as the tales of daemonolgy goes the number one reason for dealing with deamons was to gain knowledge of something that you yourself had no knowledge of.

There is no reason, or nothing that leads me to belive, mechanics and abstractions in the DH RPG aside that a blank could seek knowledge of summoning deamons or could traffic with warp native enitities. Just like Noble Borns can acually be psykers (despite the rules of DH) I understand the need in a comercial venture to limmit things for 'balancing' purposes, however insofar as the background material is concerned I don't see any reason you couldn't have a chaos follower who is a blank, and who has made some type of bargin or pact with a deamonic or warp entity, they will however be more limited in thier 'rewards.'

As an interesting aside, I'd have to break out the old RoC but I think there were even mutations or rewards that esentially used to make followers function like blanks, which basically made them hyper resitant to magic/psychic powers. Also I wonder how many view the nature of a daemonic pact if they think it impossible for nulls to engage in them, its seems many view a 'pact' simple as a persistent psychic power someone else is mainting for you.

Its interesing to note that while a Null rod would disrupt psychic powers or prohibit the bearer from themself generating or being directly targeted by them, they (Null Rods/Devices) do not seem to inhbit, affect or 'turn off' daemonic gifts, rewards or mutations. Personally I view the essence of making apact to be fundamentally diffrent than most, and thus don't see at all why an individual that was a blank would not be able make barigins, they would only be limmited in what types of boons could be granted. But I'm becomming repetious so I guesse that's that...

*grabs the largest, heaviest spanner he can find and throws it deep into The Works*

Can a human who has entered into a daemonic pact subsequently become an untouchable, through the same process Quixos used to create Soulguards?

Wu Ming said:

They'd have to get someone else to summon the Daemon then... whether through ritual, sorcery or psychic mishap, there is some psychic requirement to summoning Daemon - something which an Untouchable cannot engage in.

Wu Ming said:

Simply being an Untouchable would make the matter far, far more difficult, though... an Untouchables themselves are already rarer than a rare thing.

Wu Ming said:

The way I view it, Imperial Psykers don't have the means to benefit from any noble upbringing they may have, given that they're taken away from their families and shipped off to be Sanctioned; from the day they taken in by the Blackships they're property of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica... it's a bit difficult to continue acting as the scion of a noble house under those circumstances...

Wu Ming said:

I don't disagree, to an extent. Certainly there will be Untouchables on every side of every law (local, secular, Imperial and religious), ones employed by heretic cults of all kinds...

...but I don't honestly see it being easy or practical (for given values of both) for an Untouchable to get into a situation where he can even attempt to bargain with a Daemon for knowledge or power or whatever else, and the nature of the possible benefits will be extremely limited (even something as simple as knowledge comes with difficulties... you can't just grant understanding to a creature who is impervious to telepathy)... and that's if you can convince the Daemon to grant you whatever boon is being requested... Untouchables are rather resistant to Daemonic influence, the corruption of the warp, and in general rather unhealthy for a Daemon to be around, meaning that claiming something back in exchange for that boon is somewhat more complicated than with

Wu Ming said:

There are (it's an option for the leaders of the Pale Throng in Disciples of the Dark Gods), but that doesn't mean anything in this context. Immunity to psychic powers does not a Blank make.

Wu Ming said:

That's a little bit extreme, IMO.

As far as I'm concerned, any boon a Daemon can grant comes as an extension of the Daemon's nature as a creature of the Warp. If it changes you in any way, the Warp is drawn upon and directed to make the change. It resembles a psychic power because that's actually all that Psychic Powers are... a Null could not be affected by those things, regardless of how they manifest... because of a Null's immunity to "Psychic Powers, and psychic energy and effects directed against them (as well as warp powers, possession, sorcery, Corruption from warp shock, etc.)"

If an effect's origin is psychic, you can't directly affect a Null with it.

Wu Ming said:

Remember that mutations in the 40k Universe (unlike in Warhammer Fantasy) are not inherently the result of the corruption of the Warp. It is entirely possible for someone - even a Null - to be mutated for reasons completely unconnected to the Warp.

Remember also that a Null Rod does not work in the same way a Null does, so the comparison isn't exactly a useful one here.

Beyond that... doesn't mean those aren't psychic effects. It's a matter of indirect vs direct. You can't directly hurl a Null through a window with Telekinesis... but you could drop a car on him with it.

The Chaos Gods and their Daemons are indivisible from the nature of the Warp. Everything they do and everything they are... is connected to the Warp. A daemonic gift, a chaos reward, a warp-fuelled mutation, sorcery, chaotic rituals... it's all warp-related. You can kill a Null with a sword forged by or wielded by a Daemon as easily as you could kill any mortal being... doesn't mean the weapon isn't fundamentally linked to the Warp. However, it's the sword and its wielder gaining the benefit from the powers within the Warp... the Null is the unfortunate third party, no different from one who has just had a telekinetically-levitated truck dropped on him.

Wu Ming said:

You're assuming that any appropriately-minded Untouchable would be able to find and negotiate with a suitable Daemon in the first place...

Having read your replies, which are well founded, I can see where the diffrence in view lies. There are some fundalmental variences in the way we view the mechcanics in 40,000 Universe functioning, and it is likely you are correct in this instence as your view is likely more inline with what passes for cannon in regards to anything GW realated.

I do not maintain that, despite any abstractions in rules be they in 40K the TT Game or DH as a RPG that a 'psychic' or any 'psychic appitude' as requisite to manifest, engage or otherwise influence or manipulate warp or other non-materium or 'outer' energies. Thus you could have Ameus (sp?) Eisenhorn's Adept and a non-psyker learn the proper ritual means of summoning, binding and manifesting a denizin of the warp (chereubal) without having any psychic abilty -- now I understand from your perspective, as I comprhend it, that this is only possible because despite being a 'psker propper' he would still have a 'shadow self' or some type of warp presence where a null would not.

However I make a distinction between psychic powers and 'magick'. One of the things that I personally was a bit off put by was the implication that in DoDG Sorcery simply functions as 'crappy' (more difficult to manifest ect.) psychic powers and not its own completely diffrent beast so to speak. Which I understand might just bloat the system with 'unecessisary' additional rules, so it is both more streamlined and within reason (both mechanically and in regards to the setting) to simply let them function as such.

As regards the current stance to both Warhammer Fantasy and 40,000 and the nature of the 'gods' and the relationship between the materium and immaterium I am not completely in aggreement with there seems to be an increasing movment towards making 'everything' be tied to the warp. I do not see things as such, however recognise these are my opinions and not 'excepted fact' by any stretch. There is as far as I am concerend a diffrence between psychic ability and 'magick' between divine or clerical magick and arcane or warp based magick, not all 'gods' dwell or are even native to or spawned from the warp or immaterium. These are I recognise my views, thus, in retrospect I think my main point of contention might be based more on 'my 40K' and how things function in my version(s) of the settings than perhaps the actual 'cannonical' universe.

Insofar as other aspects of the setting such as nulls literary lacking 'souls' or null rods and other null technolgy being somehow 'diffrent' in function or effects than a null I still disagree, as well as with the asertion that ' Utouchables are rather resistant to Daemonic influence, the corruption of the warp, and in general rather unhealthy for a Daemon to be around ' Not all 'influence' will be resultant of a psychic power, influence is simply that, a deamon which can see and hear a null (materially) and nulls which can also percive a deamon or warp entity (materially) may influence one another after a fashion through their actions and words, although I concede they would each be rather limmited in scope being that their respective avenues of both offering reward and punishment are limmited.

I also fail to see how being around a blank is 'unhealthy' for the daemonic, it would seem that if nulls possessed some innate ability to damage or otherwise greatly inhibit and injure the daemonic, simply my presence alone, they would be better used as exorcists and daemonhunters than psyker assassins and 'witchsniffers' / psyshields as seems to currently be the case within the Imperium. As to being immune to coruption of the warp again not all warp born corruptin influences will have a direct physical or psychic effect on an individual, one could still suffer all matter of truama be it 'spiritual' (not in a warp signature sense) or psychological sense, as a result of warp incurrsion.

It would seem though if in fact blanks in DH do recive all of the benifits and imunities as you've describe they would be far more advantagous in a game (like DH) wherein they are much, much more likely to run into daemons or warpspawn or such baleful incursions of the immaterium on the materium. They would be the priemier accolytes of almost eveyone Inquisitor, given proper training, regardless of their (the Inquisitor's) leaning be they radical or puritan, perhaps though that is the point in the design though... although it would seem a bit 'unballancing'.

--------------

As regards things such as the Noble Born psyker, my point I think, was and is still valid, regardless of it being a psyker or techpriest or occupation x or y the Home World system and its exclusion of specific 'paths' (especially considering that the systems professes to ilistrate archtypes and specifically those careers as occupations propper) based solely on what 'planet' your character is from is an obvious mechanical abstraction more to institute some sense of balance then to actually represent an aspect of the setting or universe.

Insofar as your example, being 'sanctioned' does not necessarily equate bondage or servitude, to the degree to which I think you imply, especially since the game (DH) is one wherein the PCs are reprsentations of Inquistorial agents (or grunts or peons.) It seems the large ammount of both Inquistors and their cheif agents, accolytes ect. are sanctioned (read: legal / 'on the table') psykers. Also (income aside) I fail to see how someone having been Noble Born as a Homeworld Origin, most of the advanteges which seem to represent ones upbringing and acquired knowledge and contacts, would all 'go away' simply on the premise of being sent to terra on the good ship Black.

Perhaps as you stated they would no longer be able to function as a scion of the house but is the Feral Worlder in a cell functioning as a Tribesman on a backwater or the Hiver functioning as a ganger on the street ect. their respective origins are simply that, origins. Likewise Jaq Draco was of the Schola 'Home World' and got sent off for sanctioning, while seemingly maintaing all the benifits of his Home World (in DH terms.) The Home World system is not necessarily representative of the actual universe, but its understood, I think to be a means of balancing things out not showing how these types of worlds only produce these types of people. So while from a mechcanical and design perspective I except and understand completely these abstractions I do not maintain them to represent the actual in setting realities, as I think your response was implying.

Wu Ming said:

Precisely - even if they don't have psychic powers, a normal human still has a psychic presence which allows them to interact with the Warp.

Wu Ming said:

Until recently, the distinction between Sorcery and Psionics has been an indistinct one. Disciples of the Dark Gods actually made it clear where one stops and the other begins, but they're still both forms of Warpcraft. Regardless of whether you use innate psychic ability or sorcerous means, you're still tapping into the Warp to change reality...

Similar can be seen in Warhammer - it's stated repeatedly that for all intents and purposes, divine magic and arcane magic are still both magic, drawn from the same source, just manipulated in different ways.

You're quite welcome to disagree with that... but it would be better if you made it clear from the outset rather than simply assuming that everyone else knows your stance on the matter or that your stance is also that believed by everyone else. I'm going with the universe(s) as presented in official sources... I mistakenly assumed that everyone else would use that as a starting point at least...

Wu Ming said:

Who says they don't get used against Daemons? Not me. Not DotDG either...

Disciples of the Dark Gods, page 28, Untouchable sidebar:

"As can be imagined, the Inquisition has many uses for such singular individuals in its wars against the witch and the daemon"

Beyond that, I did specifically mention that the corruption of the warp (that is, in game terms, anything from the Warp that causes a gain in Corruption Points) - moral and psychological corruption are completely irrelevant here.

And yes, Nulls do possess some innate ability to damage or inhibit the Daemonic - as per the rules in DotDG, Daemons within a Null's aura suffer double the effects of Warp Instability. A Daemon is innately more vulnerable within the vicinity of a Null.

Wu Ming said:

Of course... where's the problem in that?

The difficulty is that Untouchables are extremely rare (and rather difficult to find - the only way they differ from normal people is in a metaphysical sense... but psykers can't observe an Untouchable directly using psychic means, so it has to be an indirect observation or sufficiently close proximity that the Untouchable's nature becomes evident), so they're snapped up for service whenever and where-ever they're found... and not just by the Inquisition, but by anyone who knows just how useful an Untouchable's nature can be.

I don't think it's an overstatement to say that the Inquisition would love to have easy access to an unlimited supply of Untouchable acolytes... because they are so valuable and so useful...

Why do you think it comes with such significant drawbacks - 400xp at character creation and half your fellowship in exchange for being a prized resource of almost incomparable value to the operations of the Inquisition?

Wu Ming said:

It's a little more fiddly than that, IMO. The benefits of being Noble Born are essentially wealth and societal connections. If you've spent the last 20 years or so away from your kin, likely forgotten by them (nobody wants to be a psyker's blood relative), wealth and connections go away...

All the other Origins confer traits based on innate character knowledge and skills aquired growing up... Noble Born's traits are more akin to ongoing advantages of status... a status that a Psyker or Techpriest will no longer benefit from.

It isn't a simple binary matter of "this is how the background works; if the rules work differently, it must be a concession to balance", at least not in my opinion.

Regarding your assumption that eveyone is refrencing the same body of work or source I don't think it was any mistake on your part, I merely realised, myself, retrospectivly that I was in fact operating from more of my personal view on this matter than any overiding contemporay source. In regards to dive versus arcane magick this was not always the case (at least in Warhammer Fantasy -- although its possible I've faulty intelegence on this) but I was under the impression that initially there were 'native gods' (being he Old world pantehon) and then the new Warp borne gods both of Law and Chaos that spilled in durring the crash of the Warp Gates. That Clerics and Aracane spellcaster following the previlent model found in many othe rgames of the age were diffent with the Clerics reciving their spells via their gods, and wizards learning them, with clerics having their pryaers answered or wileding portions of thier gods powers and wizards using and manipulating stored magic energies or the winds to garner and fuel their effects.

However, perhaps to clarify the original intent, or to differ from 'that other game' eveything was explained to be all about the Warp and 'eveything' from Ulric to Khaine, Sigmar to Shallya is all just congealed personified emotional archetypes fueled by continued belife and worship and no diffrent in essence or origin than Khorne, Nurgle et al. and that a wizards and a cleric are both wind users except the wizards 'know better' than their deluded counterparts. (My coloured take on things obviously.) This is the current state more or less and despite my dislike I do not pretend otherwise. I apologise though for the blur on my part which may have caused any confusion or a completely unecessarly derailment of the current topic. I honestly try to always make a distinction between my opinon, and the current 'cannon' as presented by GW, and try to keep the former from the forums and discussions.

Regarding my refrence to blanks being used by the Inquisition, my stance clarified is that if Nulls are as potent as they are, why are they not actively put that specif use as demostrated from sources in both fiction and from the TT, we have the main known military or formalised uses of nulls as eithier Culexus Assassins or Sisters of Silence. The major anti daemonic forces presented seem to be Iluminated Astartes (The Exorcists), Greyknights (Psyker Astartes ), and knowledgable and 'resilent' (strong minded/willed) individuals; Inquistors and their staffs, which seem to consist of a fair ammount of psykers comparitive to other orinisations of the Adeptus Terra (the Astra Teleplathica and Navis Nobilte excepting.)

It just seems a little but jarring to me that given how incrediably suited, and potent a tool blanks would be for such work that more aren't 'aquired' by the Ordos for their work, even if the Assassitorium is loathe to divulge their source of balnks for their progroms you'd think they (the Inquisition) would have the means, wherewithal ect. to try to utilise such a tool, however one could argue I guesse that the highly trianed Culexus may in fact already perform this service or act in t his roll for the ordos thus no need for such a progrom to exist external or in additinal to it. Thus its less a refutation as it were of the abilty of a blank than more of a bafflement that such an extremly powerful tool or resource is going seemingly untapped as it were by the Imperium, and yes although 'very rare' blanks still seem to crop up often enough in the TT, novels and also I will suspect in DH as well now that DotDG is out, so the percived rairty becomes rather realitive.

It's also important to note that I except the fact the you most likely have far better and wider knowledge regarding both the Fantasy and 40,000 settings than myself, so more often than not I will eithier be wrong or have a misconcieved or outdated idea regarding the setting, more than being simply contrary or argumentitive, and I hope that you've not misconstrued my intention(s) in any way, nor taken offense to anything durring this discourse, as can often happen in non face-to-face exchanges.

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As to the issue regarding the Noble Born Home World I'll simply say we see its function, or what it is suposed to be repsentitive of to be vastly diffrent, I can somewhat see where you are comming from but strongly disagree on that assertion and unless there has been something that I have totally missed regarding the nature of that "Home World" in contrast to others I stand by my view at its understabdably 'arbitrary' nature. I think it might have been better handled as a Back Ground Package than a 'Home World' or perhaps simmilar to the Null or Nascent Psyker ELite Advances. That aside, with exception solely to the income, I see nothing noting its 'continued' nature.

Also of possible interest many nobles historically even when incarated eithier by the stae, crown or even their familes were allowed to retain aspects of living and upkeep requisite for those of their station, and this is in prison. Many prisoners even those who were to be kept interned for life were allowed acess to their own personal cells (sometimes wings or floors) had valets, cooks or personal servants, which I imagine is part of what allows for the 'Noble Scum' archetype which seems so popular. To close, I don't think you're 'wrong' nor myself, I simply see that we seem to not agree on this point and likely will not so, I'll leave at that.