Doom and Dark Charm, and Leap

By Wanderer999, in Descent: Journeys in the Dark

Does the Overlord's Doom effect work on a player under Dark Charm since he is considered working under the OL during that period?

Not very sure about Leap, but can a blood ape move 2 squares first before leaping twice the remaining movement points? Or does the blood ape have to leap from where it was at the start of its activation? If it can leap after moving, does this mean that the blood ape CANNOT leap if it has only 1 movement point left, since it would land on a square with an enemy due to its size? (Unless it leaps just for further movement, which brings the question to how many leaps can a blood ape do per turn? More than once?)

When counting Swarm bonus damage, does the creature itself count into the Swarm amount? If so, does this mean that any creature with Swarm will ALREADY have +1 damage by default? (even if attacking alone)

About Doom:

No, Doom specifies that it only affects monsters.

About Leap:

My understanding of leap is that the monster can use any amount of MP before leaping, and if it later chooses to leap, it must use all its remaining MP to do so. Therefore, a Blood Ape can with 5 MP can spend 2 MP, then spend the remaining 3 MP to leap up to 6 spaces in a straight line. It can still leap with only 1 MP left, but normal rules about landing on a figure apply, so it can't make a 'leap attack' with such a short leap. Still, you might do this once in a while because if it didn't make an attack before or during the leap, it can make a normal melee attack after the leap, to an adjacent figure (just like any normal melee monster).

Also, because leaping uses all remaining MP, a figure with leap can only leap once per turn.

About Swarm:

The rules on Swarm specifically state adding a power die per "other friendly figure". Therefore, a lone swarmer doesn't get a boost.

Leap is a little tricky. There is a section of the FAQ covering it quite well. One tricky thing to note is that the ape can use leap, then perform an attack after it lands (assuming it does not attack while leaping). Relevent FAQ section is below:

Leap
Q: When making a Leap attack, is the leaping figure
subject to Guard attacks produced by abilities such as
Alertness, and Aura? If the figure is damaged by any of
those effects, may it apply its Berserk ability to its attack
roll (assuming it has Berserk)?
A: Yes on most counts. Leaping figures are immune to
Aura, but otherwise subject to all the above noted effects.
It may apply its Berserk ability if it takes damage during
its leap. Note that if the figure is slain by any of these
effects, then it may not make an attack roll at all. Guard
may only be activated before or after a Leap attack is
performed, never during.


Q: When making a Leap attack, can a blood ape leap
"sideways" so that it affects twice as much area?
A: No. Refer to the large figure movement rules on page
15 and the diagram on page 17 of the "Journeys in the
Dark" rules. Monsters using Leap must still follow all
normal rules for movement except as specifically noted.

Q: Can a creature with Leap attack normally (without
leaping)?
A: Yes. Leap is optional.


Q:Can a figure use Leap to open a door, or perform
actions that require movement points?
A:No, a Leap is only used for the move/attack.


Q:Does Leap affect a figure with Ghost?
A:No, as a Leap attack is performed when the figure is
adjacent, either on the ground or in the air.


Q:Can a figure, using a Leap attack, make each attack
twice with Rage?
A:The extra attack must be performed before or after the
Leap is made, not during.


Q: Is it possible to Leap without doing a Leap attack? The
AoD rules state that doing an attack roll is not mandatory
with a Leap; if a figure does not roll attack dice, does it
count as not attacking, and can said figure then make a
normal attack?
A: The figure may perform the leap movement without
making an attack. At the end of the movement, the figure
may make one normal attack against any models it could
normally target.


Q: If a Blood Ape makes a Leap without making a Leap
attack, do his remaining movement points still get used?
A: Yes, a Leap uses all remaining movement points. As
Leap uses movement points, this does allow a figure with
Grapple to pin it in place. A figure may not be grappled
mid-leap however, it may only be grappled on the ground.

Invane said:

Leap is a little tricky. There is a section of the FAQ covering it quite well. One tricky thing to note is that the ape can use leap, then perform an attack after it lands (assuming it does not attack while leaping).

There's no such thing as "perform a leap," just "a leap attack." I don't see anything that suggests you can use leap as bonus movement and then attack afterward, since the act of leaping is itself an attack.

Check the FAQ information I posted (page 10, rev 1.3). It very explicitly allows exactly that. The rules do state the attack is optional.

Q: Is it possible to Leap without doing a Leap attack? The
AoD rules state that doing an attack roll is not mandatory
with a Leap; if a figure does not roll attack dice, does it
count as not attacking, and can said figure then make a
normal attack?
A: The figure may perform the leap movement without
making an attack. At the end of the movement, the figure
may make one normal attack against any models it could
normally target.

Yup I do recall that a character CAN leap for movement purposes. There is no compulsory attack required.

Now one strange question: Does a leaping figure get affected by Aura? Of course it gets affected before, or after it lands, but in mid-air? Hmm... It could work like knockback where the initial 2 spaces are invulnerable to all effects, since leap is also 'sprawling' across the air and over everything including rubble etc.

Wanderer999 said:

Yup I do recall that a character CAN leap for movement purposes. There is no compulsory attack required.

Now one strange question: Does a leaping figure get affected by Aura? Of course it gets affected before, or after it lands, but in mid-air? Hmm... It could work like knockback where the initial 2 spaces are invulnerable to all effects, since leap is also 'sprawling' across the air and over everything including rubble etc.

That is directly answered by the first FAQ question quoted above.... gran_risa.gif

Whoah my bad! But after reading it... leaping figures are immune to aura?? Does this include the landing space? How do u guys interprete that?

Wanderer999 said:

Whoah my bad! But after reading it... leaping figures are immune to aura?? Does this include the landing space? How do u guys interprete that?

When the figure lands it is no longer leaping, so the landing space counts.

It's is all coming out of some very basic logic. Aura 'acts' when a space is entered. A figure leaping does not enter the intervening spaces so aura does not affect it. In some ways, it is similar to the knockback effect.

I think the Guard and Alertness are sort of given a dispensation to avoid the usual rules in this case so that the OL cannot cheese around a guard order or Alert hero by leaping all the time.

Corbon said:

I think the Guard and Alertness are sort of given a dispensation to avoid the usual rules in this case so that the OL cannot cheese around a guard order or Alert hero by leaping all the time.

Alertness can attack mid-leap, but you cannot make a Guard attack mid-leap. I guess the difference is that alertness is "always-on" and guard is an active interruption? I'm probably giving the rules too much credit though; it may well just be arbitrary.

EDIT: The fatigue cost for Alertness makes that an "active" skill as well, so I guess I really have no justification for the arbitrary difference.

  • Alertness can attack mid-leap, but you cannot make a Guard attack mid-leap. I guess the difference is that alertness is "always-on" and guard is an active interruption? I'm probably giving the rules too much credit though; it may well just be arbitrary.

They had to do it this way since they clarified that an attack is now clearly defined an atomic uninterruptible action. There was a big discussion back on the old boards around this very topic with Tahlia. Since you cannot interrupt in the middle of an attack, you can either interrupt with your guard action before or after the attack. So it makes apes pretty handy to get around melee guard orders :)

oh, leap is very tricky. If a leaping ape is interrupted by guard and knocked away(eg: be moved several spaces away and changed direction by 90 degree), how will it continue its attack?

In my group, you MUST declare whether or not you wish to attack during the leap or after you land.

If you chose to attack only upon landing, and you got knocked away, too bad for you, you only get to hit air.

Wanderer999 said:

In my group, you MUST declare whether or not you wish to attack during the leap or after you land.

If you chose to attack only upon landing, and you got knocked away, too bad for you, you only get to hit air.

That's good about the after you land part...because it means you are following the rules. However, if you allow them to make Guard attacks during the leap you are not following the rules.

From the FAQ

Q: When making a Leap attack, is the leaping figure subject to Guard attacks produced by abilities such as Alertness, and Aura? If the figure is damaged by any of those effects, may it apply its Berserk ability to its attack roll (assuming it has Berserk)?


A: Yes on most counts. Leaping figures are immune to Aura, but otherwise subject to all the above noted effects. It may apply its Berserk ability if it takes damage during its leap. Note that if the figure is slain by any of these effects, then it may not make an attack roll at all. Guard may only be activated before or after a Leap attack is performed, never during.

In response to "just a player said", the Blood Ape would be hit with the Guard attack with Knockback before the Leap starts, moves 2 spaces (cause he is larger than a single space he moves one less, though I am less sure of being able to rotate him while moving him. I'm sure you can something just sits weird with that.), and then the Blood Ape can initiate his Leap attack from there.

At one point, two FAQ updates ago, they attempted to codify how Leap and Guard/Knockback worked. The reaction to the proposed ruling degenerated into a a rather ugly argument between several forum members who were reading it very differently from each other that eventually was shut down by FFG. The ruling was changed immediately after that.

Big Remy said:

In response to "just a player said", the Blood Ape would be hit with the Guard attack with Knockback before the Leap starts, moves 2 spaces (cause he is larger than a single space he moves one less, though I am less sure of being able to rotate him while moving him. I'm sure you can something just sits weird with that.), and then the Blood Ape can initiate his Leap attack from there .

To clarify a bit further, the Blood Ape can then initiate his Leap attack from the new location or it can choose to do something entirely different . When the Overlord declares an attack (or any action in general, really) and is then interrupted by a Guard action, he is allowed to "change his mind" after the Guard action is resolved.

For example, if the Overlord declares an attack with a skeleton, but then a hero uses a Guard with Knockback to move the skeleton 3 spaces farther away (let's assume for the sake of example the Guard does not kill the monster), the Overlord has a few options: (1) continue with the originally declared attack, (2) attack a different hero instead, (3) do an entirely new action, such as using the skeleton's remaining movement points to retreat around a corner.