Fell in love with WFRP3 the minute the owner of my former FLGS let me open up a demo copy. So I think it is time for a thread about our favorite aspects of WFRP3 from people who own it and play it, or want to play it. I will start with one thing on my mind:

#1: cardboard standups, some people hate 'em, some use their warhammer minis, but I love them. i think they are a fantastic idea. we can get unique standups for the major villains of all of the campaigns and adventures. the only complaint I have is that I want more. they consistently look great. i never worry about them getting all bent out of shape. and they are so much cheaper than minis. if you need a reason to the hate wizards of the coast just think about their minis. one out of a gazillion look great and are super cool but unless you buy singles you have to start selling your relatives posessions in order to support your habit. they even started to make minis from their published adventures but again they are one among hundreds. i started to hate their minis so much i filled two massive plastic bags with them and gave them to my niece who likes to play with them in the tub. i have warhammer minis but i hate painting them (sorry guys) and i hate storing them, and fantasy battle is just so tedious. i'm sorry, but when i started playing dawn of war i knew that the tabletop game (both 40K and fantasy) was never going to happen for me unless somebody else has a spare army and they were dying to play. and, finally, cardboard standups *!#@ing rock!

#2 Dices - I simply love the dices. The more the better and WFRP3 does it just the way I like it. Lots of different sizes that have different outcomes. It's always exciting to roll and see what will happen. To read them as a part of the action. I wouldn't mind if in the future there would be even more different ones. Or a collector's edition of better looking ones.

Overall, I love the game. In fact, after a character creation session and mock combat, one of my players went out and bought everything and spawned a second group. FFG knocked it out of the park with that one.

Bindlespin said:

Count me in as someone who doesn't like them. Not that they aren't masterfully done - they are top quality products with great art. And they do what they're supposed to do - help the players get a visual idea of an abstract game mechanic...but they're not vital to doing so. I'm just not in love with something that makes the game phyiscally more cumbersome and overall more expensive to play or includes things that I would choose to throw away.

Having said this, WHFRP is great. We need more product to flesh it out, but hopefully that will come in time.

Old World Dude said:

ACK! Don't throw them away! mail them to me! help me accumulate my skaven, beastmen, and gobbo' hordes

Standups certainly aren't vital (used to use pennies with paper numbers taped to them for other games before plastic pre-painted minis), but I love having them packaged with the game and campaign boxes even at additional expense.

Since were' on the 'like' thread now:

I like the concise way that the empire and religions were presented in the core book. Some past products were too filled with empty words (RotIQ!).

I like the artwork.

I liked the dice so much I bought a couple extra packs.

I love lots of things about this system, but I think I'll take a minute to say that I love the books. I know that there are editing and organization problems with them (and I agree that those should be fixed in subsequent printings!), but here's what I love about them:

1) High production value. In a time when most companies are going to partial color or B&W on crappy paper just to save money, FFG has gone with full-color on every page and glossy paper. The art direction is gorgeous. I love looking at these books. (And I hate companies who used to have high production value and now have horrible production value. I'm looking at YOU, White Wolf. Your new stuff is atrocious and you should be ashamed of yourself. Not that I'm going to go to your forums and complain or anything. )

2) Small sizes. When you pull out a book at the table, you don't have to haul out a massive tome-you can take out something small, light, and compact. Further, if you want to take a book with you somewhere to review key ideas, you aren't taking a gigantic book that will weigh down your bag. (It does require that you know what you want to take, of course, since everything's not in one book, but that doesn't turn out to be a problem for me very often.)

3) Broken up by topic. I actually like that everything's broken up into different books. That way, I can hand my players the part of the rules that they need, and keep the rest for myself. If your party's not going to buy a Core Set each, it's great to be able to hand the priest the book on priests and still have the stuff you need to prepare. He doesn't have to buy anything, and you don't have to give up your manual to let him study for his role.

4) PDFs. I appreciate their releasing everything on PDF. I can read them on my iPad at work! (Not that I would ever read Warhammer material during work, of course. It's just a hypothetical.) Further, it's easy to search for what you need during a game if you must look up a rule quickly.

5) Just what you need and no more. I hate it when systems give you rules for everything; this system gives you general rules that you can expand to fit most situations. Systems with, for instance, a whole page devoted to how characters swim given what they're wearing make me want to tear my eyes out with a fork.

6) Writing. Not everything's perfect, but for the most part, the flavor text is vivid and the sentences are well-constructed. They have their finger on the "tidbits" style of writing that reveals the various cultures through tone and tiny detail rather than book-report-style summaries of cultural values and groups. The details thrown into the rule books are certainly usable as adventure hooks. (Incidentally, while I think most of what I said should be standard for all RPG books, it's really not. I can't believe how painful many systems are to read.)

PS. I actually do kind of like the standees, too, but my husband hates them, so we use his minis.

I actually like the books too Llanwyre, for many of the same reasons that they posted. My issue is that rules are buried in text. Burning Wheel does a great thing at the end of every rules section by doing a bullet point summation of the important rules that were just discussed in the text. WFRP3 would be a much easier game to run if it followed the same logic.

Shadowspawn said:

Agreed, and you're right about BW doing that well. If FFG doesn't want to go back and redo the books, they could even have a little bullet-point summary book that did this work on its own.

I love the gadget parts, and the collector in me goes bananas when I get a new product (got the Winds of Magic supplement yesterday).

Cards, gimmicks, stand-ups - I love them all.

3 main things for me are....

1. Single Dice pool resolution. I love the way everything adds into the single pool, especially in combat so that everything is determined from a single roll. There is no seperate dodging/parrying rolls to be made, no damage roll etc, work out your pool, roll your dice, work out all the results from that one set of dice, and as a bonus the "story" dice even give you some story info to build around the actual mechanic if you need it; simplicity itself.

2. The way all the new supplements, even the adventures, both build on existing core material, but also meld into the core material to make a larger whole. Love them or hate them, but putting the info on the cards means you have the info you need in one place. There's no need to look through 3 or 4 books for your different talent options, you just look through one talent deck. As we have seen as well, this makes it easy for FFG to give us updated PDF copies of rule errors on the cards, with the option of giving proper versions of the new cards in future expansions

3. The abstract combat system and the ways the rules meld into the back ground and let people get on with playing rather than getting in the way of playing while you have to refer to book x,y,z to look up such and such a rule or to remember how such and such a special action works again. This is now a special bug bear of mine since Dark Heresy came out. I find that rule set poorly worded, relatively dense content wise and with many options which means lots of rule book referencing through out the game, slowing everything down to a crawl. The exact distance mechanics of DH and WFRP v2 also give me pain as I see players working out the best "space" to chuck a grenade on the battle mat, down to the individual square, or the best place to charge into to ensure they get the most adventageous bonuses etc... I realise that is part and parcel of a game with more simulationlist rules and distances, but the freshness WFRP bought to combat by stepping away from that idea, and coming up with "engagements" and astract distances, and vague placement, just allows the game to progress at a much quicker pace, which I love.

Llanwyre said:

i think that is a great idea. i have read the rulebook so many times now that i don't think i need it, but it would be great to have one of these for your players and just in case you forget something...and i agree, a set of über-dice would be cool too, doc.

# ?: i love task resolution; it is very slick. using a single dice pool is just one great part of it. i think some of the best rules posts to read have been about how to resolve weird situations that come up because there is never just one way to do things. we can ask for simple skill checks, opposed and contest rolls, we can use the progress tracker to story-orient the task if it is interesting enough to the players, or we can just roll a handfull of fortune and misfortune dice when your players have caught you by suprise. i'm not going to say that it is better than other systems. i haven't played every game out there, but i like it more than any other game i have played so far.

I love the mechanics, really, really love them. Fast, furious and the players can get into describing their action from just rolling cus they know if they have a success right away. I am not much for the way the rules presented themselves and I still wish there was some way that agility made it harder to hit something, not just armour (besides card (re)actions).

Players do not have to reference multiple rulebooks and supplements for their abilities and actions. Everything is right there on the table.

It may be a bit early to say this, but so far at least I think this version has done a better job at capturing the atmosphere I'm looking for in the Warhammer world. The battlegame and online game are too garish and campy, and v2 felt a bit too dull, sombre and realistic at times. This title really finds the middle road in my opinion. It's a dark and dirty world to be sure but the humour is there as well (very well done in The Gathering Storm, for example) and they find good ways to make proper use of the ridiculous monsters that inhabit the Old World without going overboard. The Tome of Adventure itself describes quite well the middle road between "high" and "low" fantasy.

In terms of mechanics, I also love the fact that you only need a single roll to resolve anything and the simple fact that there are no numbers on the dice. Symbols related to the world like Chaos stars and twin-tailed comets are so much more immersive than number-crunching. Lastly, I would like to join in the celebration of the action cards. Seriously, I've GMed Star Wars Saga Edition and while I really like a lot of things about that game, the fact that all of its feats and talents exist only as entries in lists spread out over many different books is not one of them

My last and most embarrassing point of interest would have to be the smell. I know it's silly but I just love the smell of any FFG game when you open the box. It makes you feel like playing, kind of like walking into a bakery and smelling the warm bread makes you hungry

I too will admit I'm a sniffer..I love the smell of games. I even take some of my old D&D scenarios out and dive my nose into them.

jh

Emirikol said:

so freudian!!! but there is something to say about the smell of an old book.

I just bought the game yesterday.

I've been up all night reading the rulebooks... I must admit I am a bit conflicted.

I love the new dicepool concept (I've been playing AD&D, CoC and some various other typical RPGs). I do however have a hard time liking the progressmeters, the acts and stress/fatigue, talents with rechargetimers.

Maybe its because its all new atm but it all seems a bit much for me atm, and I cant say I like the close, medium range system. Im a hex-kinda guy:P

I'm hoping I will change my mind about some of the aspects of the game. Maybe someone here that was used to more typical RPGs made the transition and felt the same way at first??

I like never having to create props and visual aids to get the players into the mood and quickly familar with the rules as they are already in th box

nasonex said:

Yes, I started out with a hesitant feel...except for the dice. We actually started playing the game with stickered dice about a month before the game came out. Yes, I was hesitant. The Fatigue/Stress seemed over handed, the recharge rates a little confusing etc. Let me just say though, one session is not enough to judge the system. When the box came out we started off with no recharge, no action cards, no location cards and no trackers, just the dice and fatigue/stress tokens and a party card. Once we got used to them, we added bit after bit until we found that almost all of the bits are actually useful. I love trackers. They do really help reinvent how player's approach combat and how a GM can shape that combat. The location cards, when read generically, help to add flavor mechanically to an already flavorful narrative scene. Fatigue/Stress not only serve to limit actions, but can become sort of a subset of damage as well. For instance, if someone falls off a cliff (but not too far), drinks a weak potion, fatigue/stress can add a way to harm the player without wounding him. They also add a lot of narrative effects such as, you watched your friend get murdered, take stress. This adds a system reflection of a role-playing event, allowing both to work in tangent rather than individually. Before long, we were using almost all of it and loving it. Besides my LGS group, my standard group does not use recharge tokens. We adjusted a few cards (sleeves with labels stuck on them with the changed stats), but it did not take long at all. As I have said before I will say it again, recharge (except for cards that have an effect to track duration: "while the card is recharging") is my absolute least favorite part of the system and my strongest criticism against 3e. Something that is easily ignored most of the time, it just depends on how you run things (again, if you want to know more just ask). For instance, the exhaust talents take 4 "rounds/turns" to recharge. We simply say it exhausts for the scene. But don't let that discourage you from trying it out the usual way. 3e is a vast toolkit you can mod as you like, just try it all first and adjust later. As I said, the game is absolutely brilliant.

As for the meters...I'll give you an example from some actual play I ran. I don't have time to retype or give an overview, so I'll get to a practical, play level with them. Trust me, if you adopt trackers and use them well, you will find they can revolutionize your game. The GM Toolkit also gives great explanation on how to use them for morale, social combats, anything really you can think of. This has been cut out of a very similar thread and pasted here. Since this thread is pretty much a continuation, I figure nobody will really mind.

Example of Play

Inititial Set-Up: This is the opening scene of the game. My group of Brash Young Fools have accidentally, over the course of a loud, boisterous party, have accidentally broken through the floor of the inn and landed in the sewers below. Each player would make an Endure check. Success results in the Staggered Condition. Success with boons, they successfully dodged the crumbling ruins and get no effect. Failure means wounds and staggered, failure with banes means one critical wound and staggered. In the case of success and banes it means (staggered and fatigue - a softer blow.). As the dust clears and the character's come to, through the dark they see an endless sea of black eyes staring at them. They find themselves surrounded by a horde of Skaven who, after being suprised by the breaking floor, scramble for the attack. The players yell run! Rally Step.

During the Rally Step, I set up a tracker. For something like this I would typically do a straight horizontal six tracker with one event space (it could obviously be bigger depending on how I want the scene to play out). I explain to the players before the scene begins, to escape the Skaven they need to successfully get away from them or defeat them. If they reach the end of the tracker, they will have successfully escaped. Players agree, I give them a moment, and we resume play.

Aside about the mechanical choices of the tracker in the scene:

At first this may sound strange or you may simply say, ew, that sounds horrible concerning the tracker! I get both reactions. I had both reactions before I started playing it and got used to it. So let me explain a little why the tracker is sooo good here. First, it establishes a level of understanding between player and GM what the scene is about...it's about getting away more than the fight (player's choice - but some times it can be GM choice and good description always reinforces that point). Secondly, the tracker is nothing new than any other escape sequence, except it gives you a quick and easy way to move the scene with the players "on board." It is a great way, instead of arbitrary decisions of when they manage the escape or a set number of rounds (which a tracker can do as well) to structure the scene. It gives you a place to focus and everyone to understand 100% of the time what the scene is not only about, but what other forms of additional details the players and GM should be adding/focusing on. But I've found the ultimate reward though of a good tracker is to let players, who are not combat focused, find new ways to participate in the combat and actually feel like they are "doing" something even if they can't a boat load of damage. It gives them freedom to use craftiness, ingenuity and role-play to get a point across and do "scene" damage, rather than "fight" damage, to actively feel like they are participating in the scene.

Since the tracker here is being used it gives tons of flexibility to the system and situation. Lets say the players change their mind and decide to stand their ground. Then simply, you can use the tracker to tell how much they have to fight to break the Skaven (even though you may want to extend the tracker then to show how hard the fight is) and send them running. You can also add emphasis to the escape scene if you want to, by lowering the tracker down a step. For instance, lets say the Human: Hunter goes unconscious, to reflect the new difficulty, knock the party's progress back one step. If its the Slayer, you could even do two. That's only if you want the possibility of capture to be a possibility. If not don't do it at all! But you can drastically change the event by simply moving the tracker back passed the starting point. It's a great a indication the scene now changes, call a rally step, adjust the scene as needed. Rally Steps are great even though I hated the idea at first, because it does build tension as well as give the players a chance to "freak out" enough that they focus more heavily on the situation. I don't know how many times I've grinned as I listen to them say, "man, we are so screwed!" I have no idea how we're going to get out of this one alive, waiting in the anticipation to see it all play out. The tracker creates new and dynamic way to reflect the choices and events mechanically, while reinforcing quality roleplay and quality choices on the part of the players.

Lastly, your concerns about the combat without grids:

One major point that many people miss and I did at first, is this combat system is it's not actually designed to interpret rolls/actions on a round by round basis. If you look at the Tome of Adventure in the description of interpreting the dice rolls, the roll is described as the result of a series of blows, not a single attack action, etc. This is why there is no "battlemap" or the like for the system and why in one round, you could blow through maneuvers to run across a field, jump a gorge, dodge a falling tree and stab an Orc. While for someone else, they may draw a sword and stab once. This factor also applies to how you can also have multiple location cards on the table and characters can move from one to the next so easily (depending on the range between them). This also explains why the base difficulty to hit is an easy task because it reflects the result of an extreme series of blows (in my opinion - eventually your opponent will hit you if you don't get out of the way or defeat them). With that being said, difficulty is also available to modify the mechanics in any way needed. I agree, after years and years of battlemats, that the flavor of the 3e combat is less about tactical grid decision making, which, for me was a welcome change. It puts combat in the hands of the narrative elements of who the character's are, how they fight, and what they do in the combat. There are many, many tactical choices to consider as well, such as using maneuvers to get advantages, who acts on which initiative order, etc? Does the troll slayer go first and attack the troll, leaving his friends to deal with the overwhelming hordes of goblins? From the GM'S perspective lets say the Troll Slayer does charge the Troll, well, that leaves the Black Orc Boss to go pound the poor Student into the ground unopposed by the Slayer. Another strong tactical consideration is the use of assist maneuvers and action cards such as guarded position and inspiring words. The tactics just aren't what gamers are used to, but are a new way of doing things that alter tactical decisions in a way that is just as strong, but different than the typical battle mat style. This is why I feel the free form range is good because anything is possible. This, in turn, is why fatigue is so important is it gives structure and a limiting factor to those rolls.

Anyway, I know that was long, but it was my best reply possible. Glad you came aboard.

As always,

Happy gaming and I really do hope you enjoy 3e!

Commoner you're a rock star. I haven't used the trackers much because I was having trouble seeing what they'd buy me. Now I think I get it. It's a clever narrative scene-framing device with some gribbly bits for in-your-face tension building. Ding! Light bulb...

Thank you, sir!

Hey, I finally am a Rockstar! A dream come true! LOL!

Honestly, I really appreciate it. Those posts take a while to type and I generally get no replies to them. But I hope people like them and use them.

The key with good tracking is to make the tracker meaningful in each scene. For instance, I recently ran a situation where they had to rescue a Priest who was injured and trying to hold back hordes of marauders on their own. The PC'S had to get to him in time and save him. I did a vertical, descending tracker to show the guy losing and they had to reach them before it hit the end. Event spaces spread out for lucky breaks. The structure of the standard combat instead became about inventive ways to get there. using fear, etc. to push their way through the ranks to get to him and rescue him. It was no longer about getting "kills" it was about the objective. It's also great in social encounters too as you can have one or two trackers represent each side's argument and a second tracker to show who is winning. It's all a matter of framework for the players. Morale is also a great function of trackers. Break the NPC'S means you don't necessarily have to kill them, just have to get them to give up the fight. I used this in a villager scene where the PC's didn't want to kill them, but wanted to stop them from revolting against a noble. The tracker became a subdue the crowd measure, searching out leaders, important figures to knock them unconscious as well as words to turn hearts, etc. The tracker was helpful because, as I said before, not only did I understand how best to gauge the mood, actions, and the results of those actions in the scene, so did the players.

Just always, always, always make it clear what the tracker is for or player's will get lost. Also, you'll probably make this mistake (I did), but make sure something needs to be tracked before tracking it and don't have too many trackers going at once, or you'll lose the players.

One other great function of a good tracker is a time tracker. I generally set it up, secretly, but advance the token each time something interesting happens in the scene. By the time it reaches the first event, I either choose to introduce a new element or shift scenes (pending on circumstances). I don't do it all the time, but scenes where pace of play could be an issue, it's a good way to keep me "as GM" on my toes. It's a trick I learned from another GM and I find it helpful, as my players really get into the roleplay of scenes and can play a scene until its exhausted...and sometimes, that's a bad thing.

So have fun, enjoy. I am always glad when I can help someone enjoy a game more, especially this one. Have fun with those trackers. Any questions, let me know.

Commoner

I like the way you guys love your game. It is nice to have a strong loyal fanbase. Thumbs up fellas.

I like the pace the game is coming out (even though I dont buy or play it) and I like the free sneak previews and bonus FFG gives out.

I love the art.

Oh, another thing I'm digging is the detailed focus, in location, imagery, careers and cards, I think that provides a rich and immersive experience for the players since most of it is laid out in front of them, instead of buried in slabs of text in a book that only the keeper bothers to read.
I’m glad FFG are taking their time to do the Riekland region justice and feel it bodes well for other regions becoming well supported further down the track.