Greetings, Deathwatch fans!

This week's designer diary is all about Hordes ...plus a preview of the Devastator Marine Speciality! Enjoy!

Very cool

Looking at the Devastator the list of skills seems rather small but the exp amount for some of the high stat advances very high.

Does the list of skills expand later or is exp spent on developing the other abilites marines have like the deathwatch traits and chapter specific traits?

But even so very cool and looking forward to the release

He looks awsome.

I too am wondering if skills are linked to Chapter instead of to Carear, as there are clearly no actual skills on those tables. Just awsome sounding talents. I'm also a fan of getting the option between two different Devistator Powers, It helps focus the marines abilities.

Also, the information on the Hordes great. I'm really looking forward to using these, I've been essentialy wanting them sense Rogue Trader came out. Interestingly though, this DD makes it sound like Magnitude = Population, were as it seemed in the preview game that magnitude was distinctly abstract. I'm wondering which way it reads in the book itself.

I think it's interesting that people are assuming that Chapter is going to play a large role in this game. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the only game mechanics that Chapter affected were initial stats, and Demeanours.

Not that I don't think it's possible, I just don't expect FFG to put that much emphasis on Chapter individuality. I may be pleasantly surprised, who knows?

Well, as shown, it seems to be one of 3 options:

1) Skill advancment is defiend by chapter.

2) Skill advancement is the same for all marines

3) There is no Skill advancement in Deathwatch.

I really don't think it'll be 3, 2 would be a little boring, so I'm hopeing for 1. As for assuming the chapter will play a large role, well it was what FFG spent 7 or so Designer Diarys on....

They also did mention in a podcast that there are rules for creating your own chapter in the main book.

I would imagine that if they decided to include those rules in the game, then there must be more emphasis on Chapters than previously thought.

I wouldn't be too surprised if skills are completely related to the Chapter you hail from... after all, no two Chapters are alike even if they hail from the same pre-Heresy Legion (Ultramarines and Mortifactors anyone?).

I'm sure that Dark Angels will emphasize Scholastic Lore, Ultramarines will have Tactics focus, etc. Then every Deathwatch member will probably be trained in the same skill sets specific for Deathwatch (Forbidden Lore Xenos, etc.)

Why on earth are people so surprised that your choice of chapter is going to be so important? Check out any interview, that D6G one for example, and it's obvious how important that choice is. Some items are chapter based, like the Frost Blade or the Dark Angel's robes, there are some psyker powers that you can only take if you're from the appropriate chapter, there are talents that are chapter specific. We've already seen some chapter specific solo-mode abilities in the pre-gen characters (Wolf Senses, Blood Frenzy, Stoic Defense, et al), Given all that, it's probably not such a stretch to assume that there is the distinct possibility that skills will be in that list, but I think it's more likely that every Battle Brother might have access to the same skill list, with an extra skill here or there based on chapter, and your specialization gives you access to talents that are unique to the other characters.

Chapters should be important as any marine should be able to fill any roll, at least by the time they are seconded to the Deathwatch. Sure some will prefer one role over another, but what really seperated one marine from another is the chapter and the chapter specific gear/style/history/etc. If they all have the same skill list and only vary by demeanor with chapter choice, i'll put my copy back on the shelf and never touch it again

Yup, interesting stuff... most of the horde mechanics were known already, but interesting to read nevertheless. Also, the little fluff blurb about Space Marine operation pretty much cemented my view on Space Marine ops - they're not there to fight wars, but to win them and leave the mopping up to the guard while they're en route to the next.

So... any guesses why Adam France will know that with this Designer Diary, Deathwatch is RUINED FOREVER! ?

talsine said:

My players Kill-team differ from eachother in all sorts of ways...

Cifer said:

Way to play nice.

Just out of interest (well...) here's what I got from the Designer's Diary:

• Space Marines are the "uber" warriors of the entire galaxy, and what the warriors of other races are going to be judged by (normally to the negative).
• The Horde mechanics are there to make Marines more awesome because, well, nothing really can touch how uber they are.
• It's a highly abstract way of keeping control of a large group of individuals in an effort to speed up combat (cool).
• The abstraction inflates damage as a means of improved probability of getting by armour (the Stormtrooper Effect), which may be effective but strikes as being inelegant.
• To speed up combat, on the face of things, the abilities of opponents might be marginalised.
• Like the addition of modifiers for Horde mechanics. This might stop-gap what I'm seeing as some flaws to the abstraction itself rather than the facility of the abstraction to speed up game play.
• The Horde mechanics are going to be expanded in the future (good).
• Devastator Marine pullout box calls people a fool (in universe anyway) if they don't buy into how awesome Marines are.

Not saying any of that is bad, just saying that is what the Designer's Diary said to me. None of that is much of a surprise, though it is good to hear (new information!) that the Horde mechanics as written in the core rulebook (which the plebs amongst us have not seen).

Some good, some bleh, some promising. Any of it going to ruin the game? Self-evidently not, with the caveat that each person will have an opinion to the game that is based upon their personal preferences and experiences.

Kage

Way to play nice.

I'd be pleasantly surprised if he didn't find new and exciting ways of declaring the game RUINED FOREVER!. I've got nothing against some criticism, as you may recall from our speculative debates about the horde mechanics, but so far, there's been nothing Adam seemed to like about the game. Which somehow makes me wonder why he continues to frequent the board that continues to deliver worse and worse news about that abominable product - I don't know about you, but when a product continues to disappoint me, I'll generally walk away after a while. And that in turn makes me wonder whether it's time to break out the fire and acid...

But maybe he'll surprise me and find one single aspect of the game he won't **** beyond recognition so one can take the rest of his points a little more seriously. Someday.

Just out of interest (well...) here's what I got from the Designer's Diary:

Seems fairly accurate to me. I'd add "character skills don't seem to derive from the career path". though there might simply be a system existing separate from the advancement path used in RT and DH.

Space Marines are the "uber" warriors of the entire galaxy, and what the warriors of other races are going to be judged by (normally to the negative).

With the addendum that due to their rarity, Space Marines can't really fight wars without relying on the Guard or other forces at all. Which makes me wonder exactly how Macragge was fought and whether "The Ultra Marines defended their home system alone" wasn't quite a bit of propaganda spin... kinda reminds me of good old Brecht's " Alexander [the Great] conquered India. He alone?"...

Kage2020 said:

Kage2020 said:

I took that box as saying that anyone who thinks that that space marines defend the Imperium alone is an idiot. Space Marines take out important targets in quick strikes, then leave while the guard finishes the war.

Cifer said >>>

I'd be pleasantly surprised if he didn't find new and exciting ways of declaring the game RUINED FOREVER!.

Thanks for taking that to a good place. My bitterness is less a reflection on your commentary and more to being burned out on 40k at the moment. There are numerous reasons for that, but suffice to say thanks again and kudos.

Cifer said >>>

I've got nothing against some criticism, as you may recall from our speculative debates about the horde mechanics, but so far, there's been nothing Adam seemed to like about the game.

Although playing Devil's Advocate often leads people to misinterpret that as being the Devil, I would personally look forward to reading a review by Adam France to see what he does actually enjoy about the game. That he hasn't been overtly impressed with the Designer's Diaries is, I think, forgivable. I laud FFG and Ross Watson in particular for taking this progressive step forwards, but I haven't been swept away by them for Deathwatch . Admittedly, I did enjoy the Mission's post quite a lot and, more, the fact that they continue to respond to "concerns" that are posted on the various forums, whether those "concerns" are felt to be warranted at all by the wider fan community.

Cifer said >>>

Which somehow makes me wonder why he continues to frequent the board that continues to deliver worse and worse news about that abominable product - I don't know about you, but when a product continues to disappoint me, I'll generally walk away after a while.

Perhaps one could take that as a positive vote for FFG's positive and reactive approach to the communities response to their production. For example, consider the post that we're replying to now all about Hordes. There have been many posts saying that it is the best thing since (RPG) sliced bread, but there have also been "criticism." I have counted my own voice to that latter, feeling somewhat suspicious about the design intent and feeling that the scaled damage is an inelegant solution. What do they do? They post a Designer's Diary that specifically deals with Hordes. In there are some positive responses to those criticisms and concerns. While I personally got a bit of a dose of spin doctoring, I truly appreciate the fact that they could be even bothered to make a response. Says much.

Perhaps Adam France, or anyone else with a criticism or "concern," feels buoyed by this response? Perhaps they feel that their personal love for the 40k universe might make a considered dint by FFG even though GW have seemed rarely inclined to do so?

Again, just throwing some thoughts and perspectives. On my own behalf, I think that they fall down on the positive in terms of FFG's approach to their fan community. This in itself is pure golden. I don't think that, as a person claimed previously, that FFG "gets it" any more than any other game company but... I'm still impressed.

Cifer said >>>

Seems fairly accurate to me. I'd add "character skills don't seem to derive from the career path". though there might simply be a system existing separate from the advancement path used in RT and DH.

So many comments, constructive or otherwise, seem to be dependent on the final product that so little of us have seen. They've got my sale anyway since, at least according to MILLANDSON, I'm a sucker in that I buy game systems that I'm never going to play, but... Well, as soon as it becomes available on PDF I'll post my "First Blush Review," though it's going to be hard to review a system in an hour.

Bilateralrope said >>>

I took that box as saying that anyone who thinks that that space marines defend the Imperium alone is an idiot. Space Marines take out important targets in quick strikes, then leave while the guard finishes the war.

Good call that (wo)man. I think that I was overinfluenced by the Deathwatch video and Merrett's contribution to it and my own bias towards that chappie. My bad.

Kage

When you're having to invent my complaints for me, or proactively seek my presence by saying nasty stuff about me in a thread I had pointedly not commented on, I'd say your manic defensiveness has slipped over into outright paranoia.

As to why I infrequently frequent a board, about a game I am pessimistic about, at all ...well aside from my natural response of 'who the frick are you to tell me what I should be reading or writing?' ...has it not crossed your mind that I might be a long term 40k fan who actively plays an ongoing 40K set rpg campaign and might therefore have a strong interest in seeing Space Marines added well to that?

I am still very curious to see what FFG has done with the DW themselves. It's possible the Jericho Reach may have stuff I would want to use. There may well be equipment, rules, and other bits of stuff I can mine.

I have nothing to add about this particular DD ...which is why I didn't bother commenting.

SpawnoChaos said:

I thought we were told that there are NO Chapter Creation rules in the main book and that these would follow in a later supplement?

OK, now I'm confused...

Adam France said >>>

When you're having to invent my complaints for me, or proactively seek my presence by saying nasty stuff about me in a thread I had pointedly not commented on, I'd say your manic defensiveness has slipped over into outright paranoia.

I think that it is pretty much a given that this forum is going to be somewhat more... optimistic and protective about Deathwatch than your average fan forum.

Adam France said >>>

has it not crossed your mind that I might be a long term 40k fan who actively plays an ongoing 40K set rpg campaign and might therefore have a strong interest in seeing Space Marines added well to that?

Amen to that. I'm still really curious to see what the lady did with regards to Space Marine armour!

Kage

I just noticed that Immovable Warrior only works in solo mode, Unrelenting Devastation only works in squad mode. If the other special abilities are like that, it would suggest that groups need to agree on how often they use squad mode during character creation.

This should be interesting.

If the other special abilities are like that, it would suggest that groups need to agree on how often they use squad mode during character creation.

IIRC, the time being spent in Squad Mode was limited - so having group members that are better in Squad Mode as well as those that are better in Solo Mode might make for a more flexible team.

If you're a reader of the Designer Diaries, surely they stated that "Team Awesome Mode" was based upon bean counting? That is, you had a certain number of "cohesion" points (or whatever) and that decided how often you got to be more awesome than you already were by dint of playing Deathwatch ?

Kage

Kage2020 said:

Not sure where this idea of "Squad Mode" equals "extra awesome power-up" comes from... as best as I can figure out, it doesn't simply or inherently make a group better, it simply provides a different set of options. Look at the Devastator speciality preview - there's a choice of two special abilities there, one of which works only in Squad Mode, one of which works only in Solo Mode. I imagine similar can be said of many abilities throughout the game, with some being applicable when the squad is operating as a coherent unit while others kick in when every Marine is off being his own action hero.

Do I press Control or Shift to access those abilities?

Kage

Kage2020 said:

Kage2020 said:

Right shoulder button. If you're not going to buy the special Deathwatch controller, then I don't think you're taking this seriously enough...

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I think that deserves another...

<tips the 'ole hat>

Kage