I've read through past posts on the issue, and the general consensus appears to be that wielding and manipulating a weapon is within the scope of the power "Precision Telekinesis" since the power states that you can manipulate any item as if you were physically holding it with your hands. The secondary implication of this is then, since any characteristic test uses Willpower instead is also stated in the power's description, that combat is much reduced. For example a Psyker would have to only test against Willpower to hit with a melee weapon wielded by Precision Telekinesis, and would also use her Willpower bonus for the purpose of extra damage. Do we generally agree with this sentiment?

Secondly, what about weapons such as Force Swords? These attacks add Psy Rating to damage and Penetration, and the ability to also add the Psyker's beefier Willpower bonus (rather than strength bonus) seems rather powerful. Probably too much so. In fact, there is nothing in the RAW to suggest that a Psyker couldn't ALSO invoke the special ability of a force weapon wielded at range with Precision Telekinesis, and thereby gain an additional +1d10 damage per degree of success on the opposed Willpower roll. While this "psychic force and killing will" manifestation would have the usual +10 cost due to sustaining another power, it would still be incredibly easy to manifest.

I have a couple of issues with this. Firstly, Psykers with Force Swords are already the beefiest Melee around though Templar Calix with Dual Force Swords are much more so (pretty much the deadliest thing that swings a sword at DH levels. **** Jedi-wannabes). While I would certainly rule that Swift/Lightning attack could not be used at range with PTK, does anyone have any comments or clarification on either of these two points?

Full Disclosure: I am currently playing a Psyker character, though I also GM. I've so far avoided Force Swords to avoid stealing our Moritat Assassin's spotlight, and because my WS is so low that I'd rarely hit. Missing is boring for all involved. I'm considering picking one up now and using PTK to wield it. My stats (Rank 6) are WP 70 Psi Rating 4 and are admittedly rather maxxed out, which would be swinging for 1d10+12 pen 4 before I even channeled the special ability. Ouch.

I've interpreted it exactly as you have regarding its use in combat with normal weapons (Willpower to hit, Willpower Bonus to damage), and wonder how my GM will interpret its use with Force Weaponry...

Quick correction: The threshold would increase by 4, not 10. And why wouldn't Swift/Lightning Attack talents work at range, aside from balance issues?

Sorry I meant increase TO 10, not BY 10 (the cost to manifest the Force special ability is 6 (+4 for a sustained power) for a total of 10).

And I would rule that Swift Attack and Lightning Attack would not work in this way for two reasons. The first, in the RAW is "as a full action, you may make two/three melee attacks on your Turn". While you are attacking with a melee weapon, manipulating a weapon in this way is (by my ruling) not a melee attack since that would require you to be in melee combat with that person, and you are not (not -necessarily- anyhow). I would also rule that having this weapon attack someone five meters away would not grant/receive the bonuses melee combatants normally get from ganging up. Furthermore from a "spirit of the game" standpoint, your skill with using a sword with Precision Telekinesis is in no way influenced by your skill or ability with an actual blade. Your attack wouldn't test against WS, or utilize strength, but would only test Willpower. It doesn't make sense then for Talents which apply directly to/from real physical swordplay to influence your skill with a telekinetically controlled weapon, since "skill with a blade" has nothing to do with it to begin with. My ground is a bit shaky on this I suppose. The second reason is, as you say, purely for balance because I think this use may have exceeded developer intent whilst designing the game.

I disagree with you on the point that his skill won't improve while he is using telekinesis to use his weapon for one simple reason:

Have you ever tried to paint something very special? You have a clear image of how it should look like etc.

But you simply lack the skill in your fingers to get the image right out of your head on paper. Now here comes the psyker: Manifesting his will he could just bring his image to paper as if he had the skill to do so. And I think its pretty the same with his swordskills. He imagines how to strike his opponent, and by manifesting his will, the sword acts like he thougth the move should be. Handling the sword in his own hands, he may not be able to do such things, because he may lack a certain amount of dexterity or whatever, but he can pretty well imagine how it should work and because he is a psyker, it does.

if I know how the painting should look and I get over that stupid my hand dosn't move the pencil like I want it to do I still lack the techniques that people learned who are painting for years.... maybe it get's a tad better but seriously not very much... and then of course no one explicitly said how precise precision telekinesis is.... maybe it's just as precise as your own hand because it get's controlled by the same brain area??

I thought a force weapon needs to keep skin contact to work because of .... warp channeling or whatever which can't be done over distance... otherwise we should be allowed to throw it too don't we? (a force vibe spear?... if you're powergaming make it lathe power daemon whatever too ;P )

otherwise I'ld allow WPB instead SB but not WP instead of WS

In the fluff, Singing Spears can be thrown a distance and still (it would seem) carry the deadly effect of the Farseer's psychic might. Admittedly, I'm already thinking along your lines Sirion, since if physical contact weren't needed then why does the sword need to be carried? Why all the circuitry in the blade and grip? Why don't we have Force Bullets? (Admittedly, Malleus Psycannon, but that's a different bag of chips in my mind). But to counter that... what in the world does immaterium control via the mental manipulation of the warp, indeed what does any concept of psychic non-physical power, have to do with physical contact? Why should it need that?

Harkus, your analogy does have some merits. But let me provide what I think is a more appropriate analogy: You have this image in your mind, you want to paint it. Your hands lack the coordination, practice, and skill to do so. Now imagine you could instead levitate the paintbrush with your telekinetic powers. You'd be only marginally better at painting because your hands would not tremble/fail/lack precision, but ultimately you STILL wouldn't know techniques like impasto or blending, glazing and layering, or pointillism. I think this is represented by using Willpower to hit perfectly well: your direct characteristic controlling the movements is more precise and better (Your willpower is likely higher than your WS) but you still lack knowledge of certain specific techniques and artisan approaches.

Perhaps that argument doesn't work for you. Perhaps you counter that, by asserting that gaining the Talent one way it should apply to all other ways of using it, which is a valid opinion. Then I must either go with my semantic argument or failing that a balance one.

Though using Swift and Lightning attack at range doesn't really unbalance the situation too much if we further rule that the Force weapon special cannot be activated unless you are in physical contact.

The problem with your analogy applied to your own argument, At Last Forgot, is that we aren't talking about someone who doesn't know how to paint when it comes to the use of Swift/Lightning Attack, but rather someone who has developed arguably incredible skill, perhaps even mastery, at the act - In this case, the artist DOES know the techniques, and the measure of Precision Telekinesis is that you handle something as if it were in your hand, except your hand has both the delicacy and force of action no less than the measure of the manifester's mental will.

Edit: Let's rephrase this. Imagine our Psyker with a brush in hand, the Craft (Painting) Skill at +20, and the hypothetical talents Pointalism and Blending. Would you allow a Psyker with Precision Telekinesis to utilize those talents if he painted with his mind rather than his hand?

For balance purposes, however, I can understand why you might disallow it. Precision Telekinesis with Willpower Bonus to damage and Willpower tests to hit is very, very potent, especially at a 10m range, especially since that could easily include a Mono Greatsword, or a Power Sword, or any other doesn't-necessarily-require-physical-contact-to-hit-like-a-bag-of-bricks melee weapon.

The more I thought about my own choice of parallels the more I agreed with you, Unusualsuspect, I suppose there is a logic to allowing Swift/Lightning Attack in this instance and my analogy subverted my own point to a large degree. Though I have to say I'm still uneasy with the concept. Physical training, muscle memory, appropriate weight-shifting and body mechanics which in my mind represent the use of Swift/Lightning Attack (I presume it is not simply "sword aptitude" since there is no WS component) just feels wrong being applied to something like Precision Telekinesis. One is unconscious, the result of repetitive drilling and training to the point where your body acts and your mind stays out while the other is quite the opposite.

It's that way with any kind of sport or physical activity, I'm a fencer IRL and the only direct mental control, when you're doing something you know or are good at, is a kind of tactical ordering or game plan. If I sit there and deliberately plan out "okay, hand here now, point here" etc. then I get murdered. Usually that's the case when I'm learning something new. I just can't imagine that the implicitly Willful control of the blade that would result from something like focused, exerted, specific mental manipulation would allow me to tap into that muscle memory and training. But again that's a conceptual, "reality-seeking" point and one that has a place in House Rules.

Now THAT was an appropriate metaphor that supports your point. The question remains whether the will follows the intellectual/tactical path or the muscle-memory path. I think there can be good arguments for either side.

In any event, I understand the distinction you are making, and I think I can support it as a viable position (just not one I personally would take). And frankly, we're already in a gray area of the rules, so houserules is what this discussion is made of regardless!

If anyone is still interested, I posed the questions to the Devs.

The reply stated that Precision Telekinesis is not meant to be used to wield weapons. The scope of the power's effect remains small, and is essentially limited to what you could do with your hands or fingers by themselves. Solving a Rubik's Cube or tying your shoe were given as additional examples of the Power's usage. It's purview is solely fine manipulation.

That's odd, I could have sworn I'd seen a dev rule otherwise, but cannot seem to find the thread I remembered it in.

In any case, my GM is inclined to allow it to wield melee and ranged weapons using WP (and B, if necessary). We haven't discussed the use of Force Weaponry while doing so, yet, and we're limiting the weapon-lifting to one per turn.

If it ends up being horrendously unbalanced, I'll probably find out eventually...

Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if my GM also allowed it. I'm still trying to convince myself that I don't want to swing a weapon at 10 feet... but I kinda do.

The Dev further ruled that physical contact is necessary for Force Weaponry to activate (unless it is an epic situation and the GM wants to allow you to throw it or something, of course).

At Last Forgot can you please post the original reply the Devs have sent to you (including your question)?

I have a psyker that demands to see the original reply to be convinced that Precision Telekinesis has nothing to do with weapons...

asphodel said:

Wow, that is some impressive necroin'.

Is that your interpretation as a GM? I'd suggest taking a look at the other place Precision Telekinesis is statted out - Rogue Trader. In it, it explicitly allows weapons to be used, though it uses Psy Rating for damage (interestingly where, DH RAW, I interpret no damage bonus at all ;P).

If you are still not convinced, then the psyker can come here and ask the question itself. It would be interesting to get another response, as the question was asked so long ago.

I would suggest, if your player decides to ask the question, that said player drafts a reasonable background for the question - noting things like the examples the power uses (Pulling pins? Is that supposed to be around the limit of its strength?), its wording (Would 2-handed weapons be wieldable, or just the equivalent of 1 hand?), its parallels (Rogue Trader's version allows wielding weapons), and its peers (This power is as difficult to use as Dominate, Holocaust, Mind Scan, and Regenerate - what interpretation balances the game best?).

Or just come to that conclusion with your group (note, not just yourself - while you're the arbitor, the game is for everyone's enjoyment. Compromise is not a dirty word), rather than trusting a Rules-answering function that by its nature may only offer personal (albeit from the Dev) opinions and cannot delve into the sophistry and semantics of a truly thorny rules debate.

Edit: As an update, I may as well mention how my interpretation has changed over the last year+... I'm still of the interpretation that combat talents could be utilized by a PT wielded weapon. I'm wavering on their use when the weapon isn't partially wielded by the psyker, as well. My GM also limited the lifting capability of a PT wielded weapon severely, at least on its own - if it weights more than my WP Bonus in kg, I cannot wield it effectively as a weapon. I can, however, support up to half its weight physically (holding it in my hand, for example) and still wield it effectively.

So far... I've only used it once. It was glorious! It was also brutally effective, which I'd hope for in a Threshold 23 power. Balanced? More testing needed, but my companions are pretty tough mothers themselves...

I have seen some interesting uses too for this power like a psyker who wanted to be a melee beast so he would use PT to the the 2nd hand on his 2handed chain sword (cant think of the name right now), so that after he manifested this power he could then equip his shield for more survivability in combat. It worked out pretty well and looked pretty cool to be seemingly 1handing a 2handed chain sword.

AAAHHH! Psyker munchkinry! Must strike down with extreme prejudice!

Translation: No No No No! Psykers are already more than powerful enough, no need to boost them further and let them outperform melee fighters on their own game in addition to everything else they excel at.

Keep those pesky witches in their place, I say!