There is already a thread about this, but it doesn't cover exactly what I was confused about.

I know that if you have multiple characters in play and you lose a claim 2 military challenge you have to kill 2 different characters you control (and you have use appropriate effects like bodyguard to save them). My question is what will happen if you have less characters than the claim? For example, I lose a claim 3 military challenge, but I only have one character in play, Arya Stark, who has Nymeria, Bodyguard, and a Duplicate. Would I have to kneel Nymeria, sacrifice the duplicate and sacrifice the body guard to satisfy the claim of 3? Or would I only need to kneel Nymeria and the other 2 claim of the plot will fizzle because it has to be 3 different characters?

Right now I am operating under the idea that if you have multiple characters, multiple things will die. If you only have one character and he has duplicates, you have to satisfy the claim by losing as many duplicates, or using as many save effects, needed to satisfy the claim.

Thanks in advance

My opinion, as a newbie ... so it probably doesn't count. But hopefully it will reveal just how well the rules are written without having read any FAQ or other debates...

So .. in my opinion, you have to resolve things one at a time. Let's take this (modified) example

Andy attacks Bob with a 3-claim military challenge.

Andy's attack also has Deadly.

Bob loses on both the military challenge and the deadly "count". Bob only has 1 character, and that one character has three "saves" (duplicates, attachments, whatever).

First, you resolve the 3-claim military challenge. Bob would have to choose 3 characters. He only has 1, so he can only choose 1. Therefore, that 1 character dies ... ONCE. Bob saves the character, character now has 2 saves left.

Second, you resolve the Deadly effect. If that 1 character participated (let's say it did), then it would be the chosen 1 to die. Therefore, that 1 character dies ... ONCE ... (again). Bob saves the character, character now has 1 save left.

Mathias Fricot said:

This is incorrect. Like anything else, claim is an effect. Effects work in the order "initiate-save/cancel-resolve." Choosing targets is part of initiating the effect. So in a claim-3 challenge, you'd initiate the effect by choosing 3 characters, have the opportunity to save any of them, then kill any of the chosen characters that were not saved.

You do NOT choose character #1, try to save it, kill it; choose character #2, try to save it, kill it; etc. There is only one opportunity to choose characters to die for claim, and - as with anything - claim can only choose an individual character 1 time.

Said another way, regardless of the claim value , a single claim effect can only kill an individual character one time - so you only need one save.

ktom said:

Cool, looks like my interpretation is pretty close. Let me just get my terms properly aligned...

The modified example I laid out:

Stormtower said:

So ...

Effect 1: 3-claim military challenge

initiate: choose 3 characters; Bob can only choose 1. Only 1 character chosen.

save/cancel: the 1 character chosen is saved

resolve: no character dies

Effect 2: Deadly

initiate: choose 1 participating character; Bob can only choose 1. Only 1 character chosen.

save/cancel: the 1 character chosen is saved

resolve: no character dies

(2 saves out of 3 used up)

Stormtower said:

Sure, your results are correct. You say "Bob can only choose 1" in regards to Deadly. You never choose more than one with Deadly. Also, I don't know that I would say that you have to resolve things "one at a time." As ktom explained in his post, each effect is resolved in something more closely resembling "all at once" rather than "one at a time."

schrecklich said:

I should clarify. You should resolve *effects* one at a time.

So the military claim effect would be resolved before deadly. And that's the only reason I included deadly in my example to show that there's an order to the way effects and multiple effects are resolved.

Stormtower said:

Well, in this case it almost adds too much to the explanation. As a framework effect, claim is settled in Step 3 of the "Resolve Challenge" framework window. As a passive effect, Deadly is settled in Step 4 of the same window. The fact that claim resolves before Deadly has less to do with the fact that effects resolve "one at a time" and more to do with the fact that they are different kinds of effects with different timing and therefore initiate at distinct and different points in the game.

Wow. That's just ... amazingly confusing, ktom. I understand it, since I've now read through the FAQ.

But someone who just picked up the rulebook wouldn't have those flowcharts, right?

Stormtower said:

Well, the existence and location on the internet of the flowcharts is mentioned at the end of the rulebook. It's really not that complicated - sure, the game has a lot of different effects that can happen (the appeal of a CCG-style game is that each card adds something to the rules), but it would be hard to structure the timing in a simpler way than it is structured within the current set of rules. Challenge resolution just boils down to:

1. Determine winner of challenge
2. challenge result is implemented
3. reward for unopposed challenge is awarded
4. renown is awarded

5. Passives

6. Responses

Then you just need to know that "Passives" encompasses everything that initiates passively as a result of 1-4 (this includes effects like Deadly which initiate "after the challenge resolves").

Stormtower said:

Ha, my first advice to newbe is "see flowcharts" - without it the game is amazingly confusing