You missed out all the interesting stuff about Untouchables, like how they almost blocked out the Astronomican and were culled, their connection to the Adeptus Mechanicus and how the Culexus temple was formed.

angryboy2k said:

Your inability to see how it's possible doesn't stop it being possible

Heh I have no idea how the culuxes formed, and I am assuming you mean the necrons connection to the Mechanicus, because I don't think untouchables actually have anything special with that. Yes there very well may be a C'Tan sleping in mars. We don't know that though. We do know for a fact that the pariah gene is necron based. I was also unaware that the untouchables were blocking the astronomicon. There'd have to be a fairly large critical mass to do something tyhat extreme though. I'm going to say that it probably isn't true.

As for levels of power, there certainly are. Some untouchables have a stronger level of untouchableness and a variation of range. Jurgen strikes me as very very powerful, enough to mess with the hive mind. Ravenor's Untouchable (Smokes lots of Lho sticks) has his power degraded and eliminated by... well its really hard to say way, super charged psyker boy I think (The boy was barely psychic till he got a full demonic warp blast in his face. Seemed to do something to him. Other then iduce a coma).

Stratigo said:

Normally I'd take offence at that, but today I'd rather just laugh at your ignorance. and I wasn't referring to the Necrons at all.

" lore monkey " indeed...

Charax said:

Either that lore itself is really really old or really really new. I have not ever run across anything to do with the pariahs blocking the astronomicon, To me it strikes as something that would require a lot of untouchables to accomplish. More then there actually are. A noticeable amount of them. I didn't say you made it up I meant that the lore you read was itself probbly not true not that it didn't exist at all. 40k is filled with that kind of stuff. Ask the Zoats. Or maybe the archives have been purged of the event and the inquisition is currently heading to your house for a handy mind wipe.

As the the Mechanicus, well they have connections to all sorts of things. I wouldn't be at all surprised if a certain Mechanicus group is studying untouchables. But it just doesn't strike me as something the more ancient adapts that lead the mechanicus would speand more then a passing thought on. Unless this was an abstract reference to the dark mechanicus, which i am sadly lacking in details (hopefully when I finally read the book that'll remedy this.)

Stratigo said:

Stratigo said:

This argument applies equally well to each and every item you cited as absolutely true. Much of your info seems to derive directly from the Necron Codex.

The background material in each Codex is from the point-of-view of its own faction. (You appear to prefer the necron stuff)

If we accept each Codex as absolute truth (with no room for gray area or other ideas) then every army (except maybe the guard whose codex pretty much says they rely on feeding men into the meat grinder and bringing down the enemy through attrition) is so un-godly bad-assed that no other force in the galaxy is even a speedbump to their might. Sorry it just doesn't wash.

Everywhere I've read about the necrons being the source of the pariah gene it is always stated that based on the necron use of pariahs and their hatred of the warp that it is theorized that the Deciever may have seeded the pariah gene into humanity. This is far from the absolute you present.

When it comes to the novels as source material, hey there's lots of good often useful stuff out there, but remember the novels often conflict as GW continuity guidelines are at best extraordinarily loose (often appearing entirely non-existant). Therefore they can't be cited as absolute, merely as semi-official/sanctioned views of the 40k universe. Each player/group must pick and choose which of these to follow and which to ingore as suits them best.

Finally never forget GW's official stated policy re background material "Everything is canon, Nothing is true."

Why is this forum so bloody wonky... ?

Where's DocIII's post?!

I don't know what's w/ forum, but I can see my above post just fine.

The codexes actually do present objective truth. They base themselves around their various armies, but the narative parts (EG the who your army is type sections) Are about as canon as it comes in 40K. Now the various blerbs and stories are presented with an obvious bias, usually either army based or based around the Imperium. So where comes out and tells you "Necrons fought an ancient war against the Old Ones" you can take that as pretty much fact, but where its goes "And the deceiver looked out upon what he had wrought and smiled" that is colored by the necron point of veiw. Still events did happen that way and unless directly controdicted you take it as cannon. I don't think there is any fluff out there controdicting the assertation that the pariah gene was derived from necron meddling, and its pretty clearly stated it is in the codex.

Stratigo said:

So considering everything I said comes from the 2nd edition Assassins codex , and contains no particular pro-assassin bias (it's neutral in tone, the same as the background sections of the Necron codex are, and as one of the first mentions of Untouchables in the 40K universe it's designed to present them in a historical context to introduce the concept) where does that leave your assertion that it's "probably not true"?

Stratigo said:

Ah my word...that did make me laugh. Cheers mate!

But seriously, they may present a 'subjective truth' ...but personally i'd balk at even going that far...

GW canon fights...gotta love 'em...

No idea - the forum is wierd at best of timeand seems strangely slow compared to other I use?

It also seems to glitch alot of the time - ah well its nice to have the rescource....................maybe I ddi something wrong?

back on topic - Taking one form of GW production as higher Canon than another is difficult at best

as someone said GW themselves don't bother trying...........

With a foot in my mouth honestly. I figured the culuxes thing would be in the assassin codex, but the other two didn't seem to really fit. I was just getting into the hobby at that point and never picked a copy of the assassins codex up before they discontinued it.

And the codexes do give you a fairly objection truth. They tell you fairly plainly without any dissembling how some things have happened. The codexes are considered th highest order of 40k fluff because they are written from an unassociated narrator's veiw point. Which means they aren't purposely colored from the veiwpoint of the imperium or whatever army they represent and only by the narrator himself.

Stratigo said:

A cannon is an artilery piece.

The narration in a codex (even the parts you term unbiased) regularly highlights the strengths of that force. The background in a Codex is clearly this is why these guys are the coolest and you should buy these models. The don't generally say these guys suck at x,y and z. That would be bad marketing.

It kind of like that in "King Kong v. Godzilla" Kong wins and in "Godzilla v. King Kong" Godzilla wins. In many works, whoever is the top billing title character/faction/whatever has home advantage and bias of his own writers.

I'm not saying Codex info isn't good and often better for consistency than many other sources; or that Codex info is wrong; just that there is no absolute "This is the TRUTH!" Also what is presented as truth in one Codex may not apply when looking at another. (Even in the narative portions)

GW has gone out of their way to avoid such absolutes.

[Especially when you are talking about what are essentially creation myths. No matter how unbiased the scholar presenting them, they're still myths that can be questioned]

*Uses a cannon to shoot A hole through Doclll* Hmmm... seems you're right .

Yes it presents the cool shiny bits far more then it shows their rusty hidden undersides. That doesn't change the fact that those cool shiny bits still exist. I'm not saying that presented in the codex is the complete truth. Far from it. But it presents facts that can be taken as truth for more readily then novels.

DocIII said:

It's fitting considering the topic, but insofar as my machine is concerned you're a Blank, and Untouchable for eithier of my browsers.

Stratigo said:

Attorney: "He threatened to shoot me with a cannon. That's assault!"

40k "rules-lawyer": "You can't do that in the assault phase, You have to fire all your ordinance in the shooting phase."

Are you both DocIII?

As far as I know 40k does not yet have a bar association, however I am a member in good standing of the South Carolina Bar.

As can be seen here: www.scbar.org/member_resources/member_directory/&name=David%20R.%20Schumpert,%20III

DocIII said:

I used to drink there too... oh wait...

The old Assassin codex said something along the lines of that a factions within the -I-, OA & the AM set up a breeding program some time ago for the purpose of investigating the phenomena of untouchables and was responsible for breeding the first of the Cullexus. The program was ‘officially’ disbanded and the test subjects purged after it was discovered the proximity of so many untouchables was causing a shadow to be cast upon the Astronomicon. It was hinted however in that many more than just the Cullexus were saved and that the program does still exist, albeit in secret. Spread out across several distant sectors in order to prevent any future discovery.

I don’t see this as being completely at odds with the introduction of the Pariah gene or any of the retcon involving the Necrons. If the Pariah gene(s), interfered with the psychic genes encoded into the early humans, it might explain the variations in power and ability displayed across the various books. I see it as untouchables with recessive pariah genes would have a less brilliant presence in the warp, those with more dominant genes would have an even more dimmed, tarnished, worm eaten presence. Finally those with fully dominant genes (or fully blocked psyker genes) would have no presence at all. Given the variation in terms currently used to describe these individuals, ‘untouchable’, ‘null’, and ‘pariah’ you can pretty much write whatever house rules you like for whatever power level your comfortable with and stick one of those labels on it.