Wu Ming said:

How much more can you really write about Untouchables, before you start having to pull extra information out of thin air, though? Certainly, when I wrote up mine in Something Other Than Human (which predate, but are very similar to, those in DotDG), there was a finite amount of information I could put down without adding huge chunks of unfounded speculation (which wasn't the intent of that supplement), and the section ended up being unsatisfyingly short - this is part of my confusion: I got virtually nothing but praise from the community for the material in SOTH, yet virtually identical rules are placed in an official supplement, only to recieve a response of "meh" or "could have done better". The official one manages to pack more information into less space, so I consider it superior to my attempt.

Is there such a gap between the expectations placed upon amateur writers compared to professional ones (even when dealing with an industry where the latter have normally come from amongst the former) that my work receives praise while an IMO superior one in an official supplement receives nothing more than curious indifference? Because if so, then quite frankly, my efforts feel cheapened, because with everything I write, I'm putting out the best work I can, and if I'm not being held to a particularly high standard... well, it means that any praise I've gotten means less than I had hoped.

Which is disappointing.

Back to the topic at hand: the inclusion of Untouchable rules here has always seemed to be a case of "this is as good a place as any to put them" as anything else - they weren't going to get their own section (even in the rulebook, Untouchables are only referred to in the Psychic Powers chapter), so this was really all I was ever expecting in the first place. Again, I have to ask... what was expected to merit such an indifferent response... I'm genuinely curious here.

Simply put.... the null rules in GMs kit is roughly 20 words away from being the same as presented in DotDG.

On several occassions, namely those PodCasts, one of the sellin gpoints for DotDG was "Nulls, its in there!"

As you said, its as if they were just waiting for a place to shove it into the game. It would fit more in the Inquisitor's Handbook, where I get several repeat weapons (sorry FFG, a lasgun is a lasgun is a lasgun, unless it is truly different, nit just has the hord Volg in front of it with the same statline. Thats a generalism, so dont look to deeply in it).

Truthfully it could have fit on page 35 of IHB, over the picture they put there.

So it isnt a disatisfaction with the rule itself (which I do think is a bit iffy, escpecially being focused on WP) or even whether or not it is better then existing fan based rules (Patriot's or Yours), cause as they are at the moment Im sure the DotDG (or should I say GMs kit version 2.0) rules look like they will work, whether they way I imagined or not. Part of the fun of getting a new book is to see how they would do something that I was thinking of or had house ruled already.

The emo level angst comes from the fact that the rule was already buried in a book that most of us already ahd and just left at the bottom of the pile of DH material for lack of real use during games. Unless you are running Maggots in the Meat or are using the poison rules that is, as I assume any new xenos were created prior to playing.

Overall, your rules are better then the DotDG ones (the fatigue aspect given to contacting psykers, brilliant, the FEL penalty only being with psykers and not hindering the entire character, the WP bonus.... well not that point LOL).

Im going to give on the WP bonus ranges, mainly because it is a in game device to "rate" that power.

What would I have done differently? Dedicated one or two whole pages to the thing, given an example, perhaps made the rating based off starting Fate Points instead of current WP bonus and created a few "talents" to go with the **** thing to show how it may grow or be "used" by the null character to his or her full benefit. Now they wouldnt actually be altering thier null power, but they would have some tricks and treats on how to take advantage of it.

And why is it that other people can have issues with the game or a rule and they dont get questioned over and over again. I paind $40 for this book, I expected better, instead I got "meh" on one of their selling points.

Fortunately I got Tranch stuff to balance it out, and a Ogryn. Which only makes you ogryn rules look more accurate.

Having re-read the DothDG rules, as well as Mr. Dowdell's Sometthing Other than Human fan supplement (which is one of my most used fan supps), I think I've decided with what I am going to go with as far as Untouchables.

I am going to use the official rules from DothDG with one slight change. Currently a Null halves his Fel score in general, then gets just a hair worse (extra -10) when dealing with psykers. This seems a little backwards to me. Yes normal people find a null offputting, but it seems weird that normal folks have the huge step, but psykers just barely notice it more.

So how I will handle it (if/when it comes up) is: -10 from Fel score in general, then 1/2 of this adjusted score when dealing with psykers. This way everyone finds nulls somewhat off, but the psychically active (including nearly all of majorly psychic races such as the Eldar) see a big difference. This just makes more sense to me.

DocIII said:

The halving really bugs me as well, not because it is a FEL modifier but because the only other time anything is halved in the game is primitive armour versus non primitive attacks. A straight penalty fits more in line with existing rules. Halving a characteristic is unprecedented.

How does that affect future increases, does +5 become +2 or +3, or does that depend on what the characteristic becomes after purchased? Why would the character ever purchase FEL again? Or any skills to go with it? As the rule stands now it is just there to be abused by Guardsmen who want immunity against psykers.

A straight interaction penalty makes more sense to me.

But I digress, go team.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Looking back on the original contents of Disciples, there is a feeling in places (such as the inclusion of Orks, Genestealers and the Ambull) that a few things were included because nobody was sure if there were going to be any more supplements after Disciples at that point. It doesn't, IMO, detract from the overall quality of the book - the things included were well-placed, regardless of the reasons for their inclusion - but the appearance of that intent does inform a few things.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Viewed as a range, yes... but The Inquisitor's Handbook was written much earlier (playtest manuscript came in October 2007, Disciples manuscript didn't arrive until 3 months later). Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but it doesn't help those people actually working on the products at the time.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Again, they're not that different. The official ones cover the effects on daemons, and influence psychic-related skill tests as well (both of which I never got round to including in my own version), while mine did include a penalty to the character's basic Fel (the cost of the package was -5 Fel and a Fate Point; in hindsight, I feel that this cost is too low for the ability given), but skewed the penalty-vs-psykers differently (lower basic penalty against everyone, big penalty against psykers, as opposed to big penalty against everyone, small additional penalty vs psykers).

Still, I feel that mine were quite rushed - I rewrote them after getting the GM's Kit to specifically include the mechanic used there, with the intent being consistency with established mechanics.

Peacekeeper_b said:

I was rather pleased with that as well, actually... it's nice to have theories validated...

Peacekeeper_b said:

Personally, I've worked on the premise that (as an ability that can only be purchased at character creation using the character's full 400xp "starting value") the penalty applies to the character's basic Fel only - so you essentially roll (2d10+20)/2 for an Untouchable's starting Fellowship (assuming an Imperial or similar origin), and can then increase it as normal after that.

Regardless of how you do it, though, the package will always be more attractive to characters with no intention of engaging in extensive complex social interaction - no character intended to be a group's "face" would ever consider buying the Untouchable package, regardless of the actual penalty. This was a problem pointed out to me regarding my rules about 9 months ago - that a guardsman or similar really had nothing to lose by being an untouchable, while a fast-mouthed scummer or firebrand preacher or any other character intended to talk to people in any meaningful manner would suffer more for the psychic immunity. Unfortunately, it's one of the drawbacks of the archetype, and not one that can be easily overcome.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I really like these ideas. Question, as I do not have nor did I really read the rules you can only purchase the Null package at the start and at the full cost of 400xp? Is this the DotDG RAW or is this your inovation, regardless of the origin that I think is pretty good, as being a null halved Fel or not is still a serious benifit, far more attractive and possibly 'unballancing' than any psykers especially if taking your interuptation regarding the realitive safty from the large ammount of Warp Spawned creatures and their baleful effects.

Given that, I like the idea of also having it cost a Fate Point as well, and agin if that was not in the RAW then kuddos to you Nathan I think that's a solid idea, as is your concept regarding the hit to Fel being an initial one. Its funny that while its only a few sidebars worth of rules its the number one reason I am current regretting not buying the copy I looked at when it was avalible. (Which is mostly peacekeeper)b's fault as I was intending to wait until after his contest.)

DocIII said:

House rule it how you like then. M y recommendation would be to hit them with a -15 penalty and an absolute minumum Fel of 15. Otherwise, the RAW aren't too bad IMO, as I interpret that to only apply to starting Fel, not advances.

Wu Ming said:

Ha ha ha ha ha ha, my evil grows.

At least you'll have the satisfaction of knowing someone else is getting DotDG a lot later than you.

Wu Ming said:

400xp as a starting character only is the cost for the Untouchable Elite Advance Package in Disciples of the Dark Gods. Within the sidebar, the rules are split into two halves - the Trait (which covers the immunity to psychic effects and the disruptive aura), and the Elite Advance (which covers how characters actually go about gaining the trait, and the additional consequences of them doing so: halved Fel, an additional -10 penalty when dealing with characters with a Psy rating, and an inability to purchase Psychic Powers, Pure Faith, Sorcery or any related talents).

Them being split in this way is, IMO, rather useful, as it allows the psychic immunity to be conferred onto creatures without necessarily bringing along the penalties intended for PC Untouchables (as is the case with the Slaugth Overseer), keeping PC-specific rules away from the much less complex NPCs (an NPC profile doesn't need to tell you what talents, etc, it can't buy - you pick them as appropriate - and similarly the Fel score is whatever you need it to be, again as appropriate to the NPC).

The cost of a Fate Point is from my version of the Untouchable rules in Something Other Than Human, along with a -5 penalty to Basic Fellowship (that is, the amount rolled during character creation). As I said above, I don't feel that a Fate Point and 5 points of Fel are a sufficient 'cost' for the ability conferred, which is one of the reasons I prefer the official one (I'm not going to update my Untouchable rules, though - there's no point, given that there are official ones which are 90% the same available now).

In light of that I'd probly lean towards a combination then of your and the official rules. Having the cost for the Elite Advance net -1 Fate Point, 400 XP Starting Character only and a penalty to some starting stat(s) as apropriate. Still unsure about the whole Fel reduction and the tying to WP. WP is seeming to be the preimeer statistic in DH, not saying it will be the same in RT or DW or 40K RPG in general but as is it seems to be the most useful statistic to have high and seems to crop up a fair amount in various tests and mechanics.

I have to say having got my copy of DotDG just before xmas there (yay!) I quite like the rules. They're simple and clean cut. I mean look at what books have come out so far and it's even admitted by FFG that you can spot hints of things to come if you look hard enough. So it was a logical step that the rules were gonna be pretty dam similar to what we'd seen. It's like how the Sorcery is just slighty harder to cast Psyker powers.

As always us as GMs and Players can adjust these rules if we feel they're not right. Don't like the halving Fel thing? Change it! Perhaps reduce Fel by 2d10 instead? or 10+d10 or whatever. Keep in mind though the Untouchable trait can only be bought at the start and later the player can quite happily increase his Fel. Thinking max stats most would end up with a Fel of around 35 which is a kinna average human anyway. I like the idea of reducing a fate point btw though, represents their unlucky in life reputation nicely.

I agree with the oversight though on there being no downside to a Pariah touching a Psyker. Personally in the games I run i'll be ruling that a Psyker that touches the untouchable gets hit by the new Agony power on the page beside the new Untouchable rules.

Despite, the fact that psykers can touch blanks without suffering physical damage as demonstrated in various novels. There should be a diffrence from your untouchable Adept and a Culuexus Assassin. I don't recall any of the blanks from the Eisienhorn books having such abilities although it could be a 'power ramp' I missed from other books such as Ravenor et al.

Wu Ming said:

Even considering the Eisenhorn/Bequin 'problem', pain does not mean damage in the first place, and not all pain is equivalent to the Inflict Pain or Agony psychic powers. Just because physical contact between an untouchable and a psyker (or even just some untouchables and some psykers, depending on the power levels of both) causes pain doesn't mean that it needs a mechanical effect... a little description is all that's really necessary...

I kind of think of the kind of weird buzzing numb pain that comes with plugging something into the wall and getting zapped by accident. Not a damaging electric shock, but something profoundly alien and uncomfortable and repulsive. I don't think it would be any kind of wounding effect or even a negative modifier, just something that you would completely avoid if you could.

I completely agree I don't think the discomfort or pain needs to be covered in rules but should be primarly a narative/ roleplayed type of occurence, I was only refrencing the novels because for me prior to Abnet I couldn't recall non-assassin occurences of blanks (and the Sensei but I think that's a diffrent story). That's been my only source of refrence for the 'civilian blank' if you will. They're may well be an ability to inflict physical or psychic damage to a psyker by mere physical contact covered elsewhere in the background material, I am just not aware of it.

Wu Ming said:

I recommend at least first book of Caiphas Cain adventures (For the Emperor), featuring Gunner Gerik Jurgen and than (hope still online) Inquisitor article, about Cadian pariah, Sergeant Dorian Black:) (hm, maybe the latter could provide some ideas about different untouchtable rules for DH)

Did GW take down the Specialist Game's site? I can't find the old page full of articles? Do you have the INQ article you are refering to?

they took it down to re-incorporate it into the main GW site. We haven't heard anything about if or when the articles are coming back - only a few have been transferred

Yeah, SG site is down for a while, and it it seems, that GW hasn´t moved that particular article to the new site:(

Wu Ming: I have that article, if you would like to see it, PM me and I´ll send it somehow (I´m not sure, if uploading it on the internet wouldn´t anger Greater Gods of Copyright....)

Wu Ming said:

IIRC the "life sucking" aspect of the Culexus is derived from his equipment rather than a latent ability, without the helmet gizmo he'd just be a highly trained killer, as it is he's a highly trained killer able to suck out your soul

Yes which was kind of my point, no Animus Specurium (?) for your run of the mill untouchable hence no auto damage / kill from contact.

I find it quite interesting that when a rule is more or less repeated twice (null version in GMs kit and Nulls in DotDG) people say things like "rule continuity", "consistency" and what not, but when I mention a concept like publishing the free PDF rules as a book I get responses like "got it free, why pay for it?" and "only if you add new stuff to it". Granted DotDG did add new stuff to it, but it kind of sounds to me like saying "If I paid for it once, I will buy it again, but if it was free, fat chance of paying for it at all."

I understand that there are loads of other factors here, other then those paragraphs the two books are very very different.

And Im just venting, so Im not expecting replies. I just wanted to shred that thought off my chest.

Now back to reading the Pilgrims of Hayte, who I personally think are just too **** unimaginative. Almost as bland as the Murder Room/Red Room thing.

Definately think the Malleus section is a weak point in the book.

I still don't have my copy of Disciples yet, but some of the comments on the first couple of pages of this thread make me somewhat uneasy. I'm not comfortable with the idea of "levels" of potency in untouchables. By definition, they are humans who LACK a presence in the warp (or a soul), and hence the ability is actually a lack of ability. I don't see how there can be grades or levels of absence. It's not analogous to psykers, whose souls "burn like candles in the darkness of the warp" and with which description one can conceive of varying levels of brightness.

Steve

Being the lore monkey that I am I have decided to illuminate the people here on pariahs/untouchables/blanks.

It was mentioned by a few that the cause of the untouchable trait is unknown. To the Imperium it is sure, but GW has in fact told us where it comes from. The simple answer is the necrons (Well the C'Tan) gave it to us when they added the pariah gene into our early devolopment.

Of course there's more to it, so if you wish to, read on. As a backdrop I'll introduce you to the war of the heavens (feel free to skip this part of verbosity on my part. Its not essential, just me going on and on). It is a ancient ancient war which essentially created much of what we know of in the 40K world. Eldar, Chaos, Human psykers, orks, enslavers (Well not created them, just twisted) etc. The Nids were actually not created from this (We beleive), but everything else seems to have had some influence from this. This war was fought between the Old Ones (Race of Alpha level psykers. The warp back then was much calmer but harder to access though so alpha level isn't as powerful as it is now) and the Necrotyr. It has been infered that the Necrotyr were actually created at one point by the old ones, but that is inconclusive. The Necrotyr were an absolutely unpsychic race that lived on a nasty little hellhole with a faulty star that spewed deadly radiation. This star would kill any necrotyr before his 40th birthday. It also messed up their genetics cause them to carry the flaw on their seed ships (They didn't yet have access the FTL, nor much of the Necron uber tech. Except living metal). The Old Ones were of course flying around the galaxy, living thousands of years, and generally being happy. the necrotyr were jealous and tried to kill them. the old ones for the most part ignored them. Then the Necrotyr discoverd something in their star. It was a being that had been leeching energy for millenia (It is beleived to be the Nightbringer). They beleived this entity a god and made contact with it and several other C'Tan. They gave these C'Tan bodies of living metal known as necrodermis. One of these C'Tan, who had discovered that souls were really tasty, decided to offer to make the necrotyr like themselves. The Necrotyr agreed. They were all put it metal bodies and their souls were eaten. EG Necrons. The C'Tan, using their ability to warp reality, built a whole lot of fancy tech and attacked the greatest threat to them, the Old Ones (Since the only thing that can kill a C'Tan is another C'Tan or the warp). The Old Ones started to loose. So they created races better adapt at fighting and who were very powerful Psykers. The Eldar and Orks are the most successful. This unfortuantly had an adverse affect on the warp, weaking thebounds between reality and the warp and driving the enslavers mad. Ironically it was the enslavers that destroyed the old ones, possesing and bringing them down. The Enslaver plagues also caused the Necrons to go into hibernation due to the mass die off of sentient living races. Oh and most of the C'Tan ate each other and went mad.

Now that that is down I'll tell you were this applies. During the war the Old Ones came across a planet with the potential of sapient life. Earth. They saw this and tampered with the genetics of our ancestors, inserting a certain gene that would ensure that humanity would devolope into a psychic race. Not too long after the necrons showed up too. Now the C'Tan had a choice, destroy the species, or insert their own genetic code. The C'Tn, being long visioned beings, decided to insert the pariah gene in hopes that it would dominate. If it did this race of untouchables would be a very very deadly weapon against the warp. Of course the old Ones were better geneticists and so far the psyker gene is winning out.