I think that there were supposed to be rules for psychic blanks/untouchables in DotDG. Either I'm wrong or I haven't seen them yet.

Page 28, side bar. Its not much, kind of a let down.

Thanks peacekeeper. Just read them. You're right; they could elaborate more on the mechanics/rules.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Really?

Nearly a year ago, I presented rules for Untouchables that were within spitting distance of these (mainly because I based them on the more limited Psychic Blank rule given to the Slaugth, which is presumably the point from which these were developed as well)... and only recieved criticism from The_Patriot, simply because he felt his were better...

...Yes now, we get an official set that are similar to mine (which were written before I even saw Disciples of the Dark Gods, remember), but IMO, better... and it's recieved with a "meh" and a "could have done better"?

Colour me confused.

Out of curiosity (and not at all because I'm working on a collection of Disciples of the Dark Gods Unofficial Web Enhancements... honest... *cough*), what would you have liked to see done with the Untouchable rules that wasn't?

Nothing really wrong with the blank rules as they are. My gripe is they are just thrown in as a side bar and I think a few more paragraphs, examples and explanations would go a long way. And Im not overly pleased with the package deal, its cost, and the affects on FEL.

Personally I also think a blank is a blank and no amount of his or her blank ability should be dependent on his or her WP. I know your were similar, and those were suually the default I fell upon when in need in my own games (which was rarely), but I just dont like the WP connection.

Makes it seem to much more like a "anti-psyker" psyker power instead of a non-psyker state.

Plus, it just being a side bar jars me.

I dont have a problem with it halving your Fel. Blanks are never going to be social successes- they are always going to be similar to someone with Aspergers syndrome- they just dont get the connection to other people and other people subconsciously reel away from the blanks repelling aura of psychic death.

I agree with Peacekeeper in his remarks.

Moreover, the rules could also include that a psyker who comes in physical contact with a blank takes a certain amount of damage or fatigue (see Eisenhorn).

Sadly I have not as yet got Dark Gods - stupid Amazon but I also thought that the Blanks effect was constant and even unconscious - now the area of effect may be related to charactersitics or technology (certain assassin temple) but not if it works or not.

Certainly in the novels I think it operates that way - Cains "assistant" - is a most competant soldier with an exceptional ability which seems always on. It does helps contribute to his social problems and effects all and sundry the same way - be that psykers, wierd Xenos or even Greater Demons - unless I am misremebering?

Da Boss said:

And that's essentially how it functions in game terms as well.

The effect is constant... it can't be turned on or off, etc. The radius of the aura of disruption (which penalises power rolls and psionics-related skill tests within it, and doubles the damage dealt by Warp Instability - only the Untouchable himself is completely immune to direct psychic effects or influences of any kind) is the character's Willpower Bonus, but that's about it in terms of variation between Untouchables.

Like I said have not seen, it but that all sounds ok

The sidebar does mention that the version presented is only the most "common" grading of the ability. Reading into this, it seems fairly obvious that more powerful Untouchables would increase the threshold of Psychic powers by 20, 30 etc., perhaps up to a maximum of +60 if you go by the statement in DH that Untouchable ability works in a similar reverse scale to Psy Ratings.

For more "powerful" untouchables i've houseruled that the threshold for psychic powers manifested or targeted in the disruption zone are increased by 10 x the blank's WP bonus. I'm sure i've seen this rule somewhere before but if you want an "Alizebeth Bequin" level of Untouchable ability then that seems to do the job.

I have no problem with the rule being presented in a sidebar at all. I'm averse to RPG's introducing new complex rules, the sidebar introduces the Untouchable rule in a concise yet comprehensive manner which makes it easy to use and pretty easy to houserule to reflect more powerful Blanks. I'm just glad that the rule and, in fact, the whole book have finally seen the light of day.

I am just not keen on the WP factor being involved.

And all the blanks Ive seen in novels dont just disrupt the warp, they block it completely in their vicinity.

Regardless, Im sure they work and Im not saying they are bad, I just think as a topic it deserved more then a sidebar.

In Gunner Jurgen's case, al ot of his "issues" isnt just FEL its overall discipline. Cleaning himself up, washing his uniform, keeping his uniform in prper attire. I would say he has a low WP as well as FEL. He isnt overly focused, but probably has a talent or two in increase his loyalty to Cain and duty.

But as I said, they do seem to work, and I will use them as is cause thats how it is intended to work for now. And since I dont plan on it being used by PCs its no major issue.

Cheers

I like it. And not just because it's pretty much the same as the rules I came up with...

http://www.darkreign40k.com/new-packages/psychic-blank-background-package-2.html

Peacekeeper_b said:

I imagine it as being a simple means of illustrating differences between the potency of any given Untouchable. Throw in a creature with the Untouchable and Unnatural Willpower traits to ramp up the size of the aura without difficulty...

Peacekeeper_b said:

Do we know that for certain... psychic powers don't seem to work near them, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the warp is completely blocked in their vicinity... especially as we know that some powerful psychic effects can simply overpower the aura of an untouchable (as demonstrated by the fates of Alizabeth Bequin and Wystan Frauka - both found their 'qualities' overpowered, though the consequences in both cases were more significant).

Especially with range involved (as many powers can extent their range through overbleed) just an increased difficulty would keep enemy psychic powers away (for those purposes, such as the Sense Presence power, I'd apply the aura as a penalty to the power roll, not an increase to the TH, to determine how much 'effective overbleed' there is in regards to creatures within the aura... and if that overbleed isn't enough, the creatures in the aura aren't reachable with that power).

As I imagine it, the nature of Untouchables is a difficult one to pin down - afterall, the only way to truly investigate their nature is by observing their effect on the warp... but that's like trying to observe a pitch-black object against a pitch-black background to a psyker, who are really the only ones able to do the observing in the first place. As a result, the precise nature and manner in which an Untouchable affects the warp is largely unknown to the Imperium, subject only to speculation and barely-educated guesswork.

Peacekeeper_b said:

But is one the symptom of the other? Bequin was working (unsuccessfully) as a joygirl when she first met Eisenhorn... she was loathed because of a single something that most people find impossible to define - she's an Untouchable - but otherwise was blessed with looks, intelligence and personality. I imagine that in the cases of Ferik Jurgen and Wystan Frauka (Ravenor's Blank), the fact that they're generally unlikeable, and they know that, means that they don't tend to put a great deal of effort into being liked. Frauka spent most of his time reading dirty dataslates and smoking, sitting around until he was needed.

I'd don't have problem with a fellowship penalty for untouchables, but halving Fel kind of bugs me b/c the result is that the higher your Fel was to begin with the bigger the penalty. [i.e. a character w/ 20 Fel, adds untuouchable, Fel = 10 (-10 penalty); 30 starting Fel, add untouchable, Fel =15 (-15 penalty), 40 starting Fel, add untouchable, Fel =20 (-20 penalty)]

I havnt gotten DotDG yet so forgive my ignorance with this question.

Is there a way to improve your fellowship with party members and groups that you spend alot of time around? If i remember correctly Eisenhorn disliked Bequin at first, but over the years of serving together he grew to love her with his entire being. Because he was a psyker any act of physical contact would cause him physical pain, that put the dream of their love to rest. But he still loved her, and trusted her. So can people grow to trust and even love an untouchable after a significant amount of time? And do they get bonuses for dealing with other untouchables?

The rules don't seem to go into that level of detail. Although I too don't have DotDG I have thumbed through it a couple of times at a Local Shop. Intra party interactions should always be a matter of roleplaying, I would very rarely to never have players make tests against Fel with oneanother. So the dynamic regarding Blanks and their cell mates should be one that's explored in game, although I would just make it clear even for non-psykers that there is just some ineffable quality about this person that puts them ill at ease or kind of repulses them. Eveyone's met someone that they just didn't like from the get go despite tehre being nothing really wrong with them (hate at first site if you will.) It should be a complete naritive affair left to the players themselves and with little dice or mechanics involved.

Halving Fel seems pretty fair to me, what I´m curius about is dependance of "blankness" to the Willpower. I don´t think it´s so problematic fluff-wise, IIRC Inquisition backround book mention, that there are various levels of pariahs strenght (other fiction justify it too, there is diference between Jurgen and Culexus assasin which tries to devour Ephrael Stern). What troubles me are rules. Psykers could vary from weak to monstrous, but effect of blanks to psykers should be from "strong" to "far too monstrous" ...

Don´t have DotDG yet, but looking forward to the future:)

I understand the fellowship decrease as well, blanks give everyone around them the creepy crawlies. I also understand there needing to be an attribute linked to the 'power' itself, otherwise it could get out of hand roleplay wise. Glad they are included one way or the other.

For inter-party relations yes, that should be purly rollplay. But what about a group an untouchable has spent alot of time around, and do they get along with other untouchables like normal humans would interact with other norms?

Im even more dissappointed now that I realize/notice (put 2 and 2 together) the the Null rules are a slight expansion of what the Slaugth were presented with as a special ability in teh GMs kit. Boooo.

All they did was expand a little more on what the null/untouchable "affected" and added the WP bonus in meters aspect.

Poor show.

Fel really only comes into play when Testing for specific interactions. It's not like someone with say a 25 Fel score gets Grox dung flung on them in the street while an individual with a 50 Fel has thrones and men/women falling at their feet whereve they go. Fel should only come into play when an indidvual is making a Test, using a Skill or otherwise attempting some kind of social interactio to which there is already inhereint difficulty of oposition.

If you look at the primary examples we have as untouchables lke Lizbeth and the Distaff you can see that they seemed to have fairly normal social intercourse, Lizbeth was able to make her living in a profession where I would say having a 'good' Fel is really key. There seemed to be no open hostility from the everyday individuals Lizbeth or other Distaffers interacted with both in a professinal or simply social capacity.

The off putting quality of an untouchable is in my estemation more af a general malise or uncomfortibilty that might crop up, realitive on the level of disruption to the immaterium an untouchable generates. Perhaps a better mechanic might be or have been to tie the Fel penalty to the potency of the untouchable quality, and since it seems they've tied the ability to WP then maybe a penalty to Fel equal to the WP Bonus x5 might be one way to reprsent this. I've not read the rules mind you, just speculating.

This way a blank with a high Fel say 45 and a low WP say 27 wouldn't be as 'offputting' as would a more disrupting blank with say a very high WP like in the 40's or 50's (causing a -20 or -25 penalty). It also would adress the concerns some have with just halving the Fel score which does seem to be a bit punitive to those who may have had a higher Fel score to begin with. Just some ideas. Once I get the book, I may change my mind, or better informed may pick up on some nuance of the mechanic I might be missing from my cursory glance and hearsay.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Why, exactly? It's internal consistency - two different degrees of psychic blankness working in broadly the same manner. No doubt, if they worked completely differently from eachother, someone would be complaining about that...

I think the dsapointment isn't in the consitentscy but more asciated with the expectation. One of the draws for some regarding DotDG was the inclusion of 'Blank/ Null Rules'. I think some were expecting more than the two black boxes I saw when flipping through DotDG I thought there were more than just those but it seems if I am understanding correctly that was it. Furthermore from peacekeepr_b is saying it seems as if the rules are little more than those we already saw in the GMs Kit. I think the sentiment is more one of disapointment in a lack of content or 'expanding' content, than one of the ceontent itself.